Asunto: »Political & economic ideologies (communism, capitalism et

Of course. I´ve been talking from my theoretical position in every post. I understood this topic should be about this from rumpil´s starting post.. .)

I don´t like today´s "capitalism" too. But if this is capitalism, then everything is capitalism. Then Czechoslovak "communism" was just state capitalism and today´s e. g. Czech regime is only less-state capitalism. I am generally supporter of everyone´s liberty and responsibility for his own life. I could write also many lines about why I don´t agree with Rawls or G. A. Cohen etc but I am not sure if I wouldn´t go too deep by this... .)

Of course it was totalitarianism. That is what communism leads to. See the history of human race.

Did you notice that if you find/replace "comunism" with "Republic", then all your statements look like quotes from the Congress of Vienna in 1815? :)

I think BlueZero is right in his distinction. Saying that comunism implies Stalin is like saying that democracy implies Napoleon.
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Nice to see another Anarcho-Capitalist. :-)

It's all very simple in my opinion:
Anarchy => because monopolies are bad
Capitalism => because free trade is good and autarky is economically deficient

Remember though, this is all from the consumer's point of view (i.e. you and me).

And democracy is a soft form of communism.
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I completely agree with you. Looking back in search of "the lesser evil" is not the best nor the only thing we can do. There's no reason to believe that "this time is true, this is it, everything is invented, so just choose from that finite set". Every innovation in the past was, by definition, unexpected. And it came as a result of people thinking what can we do better, instead of just thinking on how things could go worse and focusing on avoiding changes...
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So then we are ok :-).

I just tried to say to everyone, that this "capitalism" is at least that bad as the "communism" we had then.

I am not turning your words. I just agree with you.

You are punushed by law now in capitalism.
Like some of the people were punnished by law in communism.

Noone was forced. They were just punnished. Its completely the same.

Ofcourse communism had different laws as capitalism. But noone can say what laws are better than the others. It would just have to be God. But i dont believe in God.

I just tried to say to everyone, that this "capitalism" is at least that bad as the "communism" we had then.

It's like that joke: two old-school communist party members meet each other, years after the collapse of the USSR. One says to the other:
- Did you see? Everything they told us about communism was a lie.
- It was indeed. But even worse: everything they told us about capitalism was true!
:P

Right. Good one.
But its real :-).

Not really.

That really says it all. I want the people to decide what system of society organization should be used, you want to make a system, and force the people to follow that system. Your way is unacceptable for me. I consider myself a real democrat, and there are not a lot of people who are like that unfortunately. At least not in my country.

Edit: for me, there is only one real democracy in the world, and it is Switzerland. Great country.
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And democracy is a soft form of communism.

How do you mean, in what way?

As I have probably quite same view as Aigyptos:

Democracy is great but it is usually still made from above. There is still government - unless you take vote or candidate in elections. You are not part of your state from your choice and not because you signed some "social contract" but simply because there was government before (aristocratic or "communistic") and it soften...

The only really liberally established democracy is anarcho-democracy like that Janet Biehl and Murray Bookchin talks about

I used to talk similarly about Swiss democracy and I still consider it as great realistic model. But it is great only because it grew out rather organically and by nature.
I agree with Spooner that democracy can be even more false than clasical despotism. In despotism it´s clear who rules. In democracy you can "only doubt if the despot isn´t some of your near neighbours"..
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There is one bad thing about democracy: Everyone who has at least 18 years can vote. It seems good. But actually isnt.
18y olds arent educated that good to vote for what they really want. And there are a lot of older people who arent that much educated too. Together they are a majority. And this majority is very likely to be manipulated. Thats why its not that good.

Theoretical democracy would be good.

Just to let you know about the education and manipulation. Please donbt take it offensive. But your statements about communism were pretty false therefore manipulated. Thats why i think, that only highly educated people should decide for everyone. But i understand, that as i know human nature, they would also just vote for themselves.

All it is just about theory vs praxis. In hteory everything looks good.

I didnt say i am against democracy. I said not really. Thats neither no neither yes.

I agree with Spooner that democracy can be even more false than clasical despotism. In despotism it´s clear who rules. In democracy you can "only doubt if the despot isn´t some of your near neighbours"..

So true

Democracy is great but it is usually still made from above. There is still government - unless you take vote or candidate in elections. You are not part of your state from your choice and not because you signed some "social contract" but simply because there was government before (aristocratic or "communistic") and it soften...

I understand, and quite frankly, you're right, but I don't see the comparison with communism. I choose for democracy because I'm pragmatic enough to see that anarchy is unrealistic, although that would be - in an idealized world that is - of course by far the best system.

the obvious point is that you have to separate REAL democracies (what we have), with theorical democracy (that has no flaws at all). exactly as you do for economic systems..

18y olds arent educated that good to vote for what they really want. And there are a lot of older people who arent that much educated too. Together they are a majority. And this majority is very likely to be manipulated. Thats why its not that good.

That is indeed the big disadvantage of democracy. However, this is not always the case (I voted for the first time when I was 19 and I can honestly say I was aware what the political topics and choices were and how the parties were oriented in those themes), but most of the voters are indeed idiots. And yes, the majority is being manipulated, both the 'right' (not left/right here) and 'wrong' way. However, I hate how in my country (and I think in most western 'democracies') the (public) media & politics keep the people stupid. They have the 'task' to improve the knowledge of the people about politics.


Just to let you know about the education and manipulation. Please donbt take it offensive. But your statements about communism were pretty false therefore manipulated. Thats why i think, that only highly educated people should decide for everyone. But i understand, that as i know human nature, they would also just vote for themselves.

Well, what I've read about communism (both in my free time as about my studies [I study economics, that might explain why I am pro-liberalism, pro-capitalism and anti-communism]) shows me obviously it is a bad system that can never work for the people.