Asunto: »7170 managers in Sokker!

"and every time the first suggestion is... change the design again :P"
This wouldn't be the case if it wouldn't be horrible.

I don't know what you know about design, but mostly if something is well designed it gives an added value and less people will bash it in opposite of what you think... it will rather attract people. But small entrepreneurs don't have the money to hire good designers..

Yes ipod is still a mp3 player, but i think you got my point... it was designed differently so it became innovative, sold more and became iconic. Yes others may criticize me, but still there is quality and quantity...and its easier for users or customers to adapt to good design if its simple and nice.

Thats is why there is only one iphone, one macbook etc... but the market share is pretty equal to thousand other phone models and so on. Because apple for example made it just more simple and nice.. and thought about the customer. People pay more money for quality, you can get monster win laptop for a normal macbook that doesn't have monster specs really. PLUS users would be happy to pay and subscribe if the product would be better, and the drop rate would improve.

Still we see this differently, I'm not looking to throw horse shit here, i love the game and appreciate that it was made. But everything have to evolve, specially in tech. And I'm looking for solutions.

I work as a professional product and graphic designer and talk from experience. I help entrepreneurs to realize their ideas, so i thought i could suggest improvements.


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Is it just one year ago there came new design??

An ingame tutorial, would do 100 times the effect of new design...

Call it "new" =)
For new users, it looks still old. Yes but you will collect empty accounts, if the product is not good they will leave.
And still, i suggest that those two stuff are equally important so they should be done at the same time. But have you seen the kids today? they are picky..
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This wouldn't be the case if it wouldn't be horrible.

Except it will always be horrible to someone.


Yes ipod is still a mp3 player, but i think you got my point... it was designed differently so it became innovative, sold more and became iconic.

I'm sorry, but no, iPod sales can be explained by Qstarw's department, not yours :P


I don't know what you know about design

And I don't know what you know about markets and running a business. Have you checked the sales of MP3 players lately? Including iPod? Would you say Apple should re-design it so sales start booming again?

Design, marketing, programming, customer service, human resources management, it's all fine, but it all serve one purpose, the only true central, key aspect of any product and any business: the concept. What is it that you sell, who is your target audience, how do you really, ultimately create value for them?
Sure, there's nothing wrong with having a nice design, there's nothing wrong with having good advertisement, but design and advertisement cannot substitute for the core product characteristics, and they cannot change the fact that the product belongs to a declining market.

Now, I'm a man of science: I'm not very good at "good", "bad", "horrible", but I'm quite permeable to evidence and facts, so if there is any half-decent estimate of the impact of changing Sokker's design on its user base or the expected lifespan of new users, I'm all ears. Otherwise, my words would be quite accurate: it is at best a conjecture.
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I don't know about you people,but old layout is much more simplified and user friendly than the new one.

Only fools fall for design.That's why apple is so popular :)

And as someone said above,ingame tutorial would help a lot.At least to cover some basics.
You know,like "getting started with sokker",kind of a wizard.Some pointers,where to ask questions,how to buy players,how to make tactics.
After all,this is a quite complicated manager comparing to the others.And that's why is it difficult for old users to quit.And that's why is it difficult for new managers to stay.

:)

"Except it will always be horrible to someone."
Yes someone, not most of them and thats the point of turning the momentum over.

I'm sorry, but no, iPod sales can be explained by Qstraw's department, not yours :P
No sorry, around 96% of the users will drop as before. If the ipod was a product with bad design, it would still not been a best seller if it had the best marketing department in the world. And it would be dropped...

And I don't know what you know about markets and running a business. Have you checked the sales of MP3 players lately? Including iPod? Would you say Apple should re-design it so sales start booming again?

Since i finished my studies, i haven't needed to look for a job since I've been running my own design studio successfully in years, since i help customers build up brands, i have years of experience in marketing. MP3 don't need to sell anymore, you know why? everything just evolves, and there is smartphones today with Spotify in them. Again better product at the right time..

Design, marketing, programming, customer service, human resources management, it's all fine, but it all serve one purpose, the only true central, key aspect of any product and any business: the concept. What is it that you sell, who is your target audience, how do you really, ultimately create value for them?
Sure, there's nothing wrong with having a nice design, there's nothing wrong with having good advertisement, but design and advertisement cannot substitute for the core product characteristics, and they cannot change the fact that the product belongs to a declining market.

A concept must develop all the time, it docent matter what you believe in. I got proof, just look at how this game died.. why do you think it happened? Do you want to convince us now that sokker has been a success? Hattrick has simpler game and more users.

Now, I'm a man of science: I'm not very good at "good", "bad", "horrible", but I'm quite permeable to evidence and facts, so if there is any half-decent estimate of the impact of changing Sokker's design on its user base or the expected lifespan of new users, I'm all ears. Otherwise, my words would be quite accurate: it is at best a conjecture.

This is my point, if you are a man of science, why do you bother discussing about something that you don't seem to have a clue of? That's why there is different field of expertis and you should accept it. You are defending a concept or a product that haven't worked well in years and developed in the wrong direction. Even the game footballstrategy has 10 times more impressive match viewer. The only thing sokker has is the tactic engine... but everything else as the youth, 5 minutes waiting...lack of education and new user platform... the list is long. Do you consider it appealing? we like it because we are old school players, thats it.

Design is not conjecture, its not your type of science...

This is why some stuff never develop either in organisations or companies, some people suggest improvements, but others are being negative no matter what, even if they know its not good enough and hasn't been for a long while.

You only are convincing or fooling yourself, but most of the users here been unhappy with how the game have been developing for a while now, and a change is needed.

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You should try good and simple design and see how it will make your life easier. You will realize who the fool is... just compare a small thing as a windows laptop trackpad with an macbook, save you a lot of time if you use it as you should. I know sokker is more nerdy and most of the people here are "anti design", but that is why it never got the success either. The product is not simple enough, its just that simple.

True most of what you write, except that you claim it is because of design...... you mention hattrick as more succesfull game, their design and interface is worse then sokkers..... is more down to marketing, ingame tutorial, communication, and bad choices as 5 min delay..... design is only smaller part of the decline, and actually biggest reason, is the fact that the market has gotten a whole lot bigger in producers, and that much of the demand is for mobile and not browser..

I know sokker is more nerdy and most of the people here are "anti design", but that is why it never got the success either. The product is not simple enough, its just that simple.

Lol..... i dont want to keep repeating myself.... but... ingame tutorial, marketing and better interface on mobile..... design for facebook and browser is absolutely fine...

True most of what you write, except that you claim it is because of design...... you mention hattrick as more succesfull game, their design and interface is worse then sokkers..... is more down to marketing, ingame tutorial, communication, and bad choices as 5 min delay..... design is only smaller part of the decline, and actually biggest reason, is the fact that the market has gotten a whole lot bigger in producers, and that much of the demand is for mobile and not browser..

Hattrick have and always had definitely better design than sokker, but i admit that is not great design by far. But they had better balance between marketing, better user interface = easy product to understand for average user, tutorials and everything else you mentioned.

As i mentioned also earlier, the marketing aspect is very important, and has to still continue at the same time as the product develops. There is no way you can convince me that marketing a bad/ old product is the way to go. Sokker has a different learning curve then most of the other online manager games and is difficult for new users to understand and we all know that. It is about finding the balance, helping new users, educate them... a lot of marketing but also offer them a good product. People prefer to buy volkswagen golf instead of skoda, even though they have the same engine inside. In total, its a better product...

And i supported this marketing campaign from the start, don't forget that. I think it has been very good.. but i would rather want to keep most of the users also. So i suggest that we miss something important here if we want them to stay.

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Lol..... i dont want to keep repeating myself.... but... ingame tutorial, marketing and better interface on mobile..... design for facebook and browser is absolutely fine...

Please don't do, cause it don't matter. cause you only talk about 50% of the formula...Understanding a question is 50% of the answer they say.. having a good product that people like to use and understand is the same thing.
And no, design for Facebook and the browser are horrible, absolutely not fine.
And with design i also talk about the game engine graphics for example....Unity game engine can create far better experience today.
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P3 don't need to sell anymore, you know why? everything just evolves, and there is smartphones today with Spotify in them

Obviously the analogy MP3 market=online manager market went over your head...

I got proof,

No, you don't, you just use the word loosely. An observation you are trying to explain is the starting point, "proof" is the end. What you have is an observation.

just look at how this game died.. why do you think it happened? Do you want to convince us now that sokker has been a success? Hattrick has simpler game and more users

This game died? This? So it is iPod that died, not MP3s as a whole? Man, you are giving HT as an example, a game that declined much much more than Sokker did! HT always had more users (and worse product) than sokker did, and they all went down (especially Hattrick!) as the market itself went down. It's not a particular game, the sum of all games, old and new, is jointly going down. Actually, the current boom at Sokker is the only exception, which is why everyone finds it so hard to believe. No, if I had to judge by recent experience and restrict myself to explain everyting with design (which I don't) I would conclude that Sokker's latest design is the best in history, given we doubled our numbers while HT continues on the highway to hell :P

This is my point, if you are a man of science, why do you bother discussing about something that you don't seem to have a clue of?

Well, because apparently at least I have a clue of how to reason, something you are clearly struggling with as evidenced by:

You are defending a concept or a product that haven't worked well in years and developed in the wrong direction.

which provec you lack the most basic reading comprehension, as I never defended a particular concept. Instead, I pointed out that we must have a clear view of what the central concept of sokker is (an online, slow-paced manager game), and what that implies in terms of its market, its audience, their priorities, etc. That is Sokker. Saying that is not an attack to anything or a defense of anything to anyone who can read.

Even the game footballstrategy has 10 times more impressive match viewer.

and i presume 10 times more users as well, given the link you established between looks and number of users.

the youth, 5 minutes waiting...lack of education and new user platform... the list is long. Do you consider it appealing?

Some, some not, but it's all orthogonal to what we were discussing.

Anyway, I'm done discussing with arrogant self-made-men that are happier fighting straw men than having a rational conversation with me.

Thank you science man for writing a bunch of text and trying to explain something that don't make any sense and says really 0.
Consider me arrogant, its rather you who are arrogant that discuss something that is not your field, running around your own head. Is it anything wrong with being self made..? Are you mad cause you are (not) so self made man?

I didn't start with personally attacking you, just told you in other words, "dude, drop it you don't know anything about this". And its good for people like you, otherwise you go around and discuss everything, even stuff that you don't have any experience in.

You didn't make a single point, and without answers you where left with this stuff in your head:
Obviously the analogy MP3 market=online manager market went over your head...

Maybe reading between the lines was to hard for you, but I'm talking about a product as general, hard for you to get i know.

However you consider it, yes Sokker was a bigger game once, but the amount of users that have dropped the game is a proof and means something, and its clear to me anyway that the game have developed to the wrong direction. Otherwise you are either ignorant or blind not to see it. The developers hardly care about their customers either.

I hate hattrick too, but it always had and still has more users and bigger community... so even if it hurts for you, they had a better balance = better product overall and more users. Its shocking me that you don't look at statistics as a scientist...and avoid them when it suits you.

Lets see it this way, why do we have even this conversation right now? why do you want after so many years grip the clear "concept" of sokker? cause its not easy to grip for new users right? Its not like you log in and you get it easily? many drop instead... So think about it twice, if the product was clear enough for everyone, we wouldn't sit here today discussing this.

I suggested only improvements from the beginning, that has been my intention all of this years here.. helping the community. And i supported the marketing aspect, its rather you who started this negative wave...but its hard to handle a conversation when you can't accept that you don't know everything..

But i respect your opinion, even though you make no sense.

And if you consider Sokkers latest design "the best in the history", then my point is made. I got better things to do to discuss development and improvement with a square minded scientist. Just one thing you could take with you, try to not be so stubborn, you may learn something new from other people time to time.

Ps. I'm going to be here fighting for this game and trying to make it better just as much as you do. Yes it is my all time favourite manager game.

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Only fools fall for design.That's why apple is so popular :)

You never get a second chance to make a first impression ... I think you know this saying.

Of course design is important, and it should also be easy to use. These are 2 problems with Sokker. DEVs have tweaked and polished Sokker a lot of times, but it is never got a real update. For example, many pages still look the same as they did with the old crappy layout, like stadium page, player page, tactic editor, match page ... in fact, almost all still looks the same.

If you look at the app game the DEVs made, than you know how they have spend their time and what happend with our Sokker ideas :/

I agree, an ingame tutorial should already been made a long time ago. But even with such a tutorial the problem isn't solved. For example, it doesn't make any sense something important as tactic editor, one of the selling points of Sokker, is so difficult to find; a small link in upper corner of training page :/

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I'm still using "old" design cose it has more intuitive and useful inreface, and in game it's the gameplay that is more important
new desine will note save sokker! it's not a bigest problem in this game
- GK still runs on a position were he cached the ball for a kick
- throw-is is always forwarded palyer, not on a open one
- tactical orders (long ball, short pass etc)
- 300 seconds wait time for a match (you will nod hold a new player with that)
- better spend time/money on a gameplay or match visualisation, than on a web design
- etc...

Even if you put a shit in a candy paper, it will not become a candy!
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Jajaja!! Well said.

I still use the classic design as well. Is way better than the new one. Simpler, better color palette, and better menu.