Asunto: »Political & economic ideologies (communism, capitalism et

No. I'm saying cheating is amoral, but not everything that is amoral should be forbidden by law.
Why not?
You are saying that moral values should be taken as law. But now you say, that not everything. And again only you decide which? :-))) Dont be ridiculous. Just follow your rules at least.

And they had a free will, they didnt have to work. They could go to jail.
Yes, people will see that this is not a real free choice, I'm quite convinced of that.
Lets say i want to steal something. Its my free choice. But why the law will punish me. (and i have to say, that stealing something is less dangerous to the society than cheating)

I think you watch too many movies.
Nope. Cheating leads at least to psychical disorders. Is that good for society?

Not the task of the government to make sure marriages don't fail.
Task of the goverment is to keep citizens happy.
Or its not the task of goverment to keep people from killing.
You can choose one.

Not true, my parents divorced, I didn't loose them.
One of them yes!

So children who are raised by divorced parents (or one parent) aren't raised well? Thanks man!
You are welcome ;-)


Well if you cant follow your own rules, then its time for me to resign this discussion.
Last words would be:
I was that young as you too, i admired USA and their society. Noone could convince me of the oposite. But as i became older i realized that social welfare is very important. If only one of the society is unhappy, then he makes unhappy also the others unless the others help him. People need to help each other, not hurt. In capitalism everyone wants money, money, money. They do everything for that. They dont care about that they could hurt someone. People take what isnt theirs. And the goverment doesnt give sh*t. Thats my opinion. Capitalism killed moral values.

Why not?

Because I want freedom, I want people to chose their behavior.

You are saying that moral values should be taken as law. But now you say, that not everything. And again only you decide which? :-))) Dont be ridiculous. Just follow your rules at least.

I never said that moral values should be taken as law. Show me where I did.

Lets say i want to steal something. Its my free choice. But why the law will punish me. (and i have to say, that stealing something is less dangerous to the society than cheating)

I disagree (that stealing is less dangerous than cheating). You don't get my point:
- my point is that it is 'wrong' to punish someone if he doesn't want to work for the government
- my point is also that it is not 'wrong' to punish someone if he steals or murders

Nope. Cheating leads at least to psychical disorders. Is that good for society?

Forcing communism or another system to the public is bad for the psychical health too. However, you want to do that. Is that good for society?

Task of the goverment is to keep citizens happy.
Or its not the task of goverment to keep people from killing.
You can choose one.

The task of the government is to guide the society. Not to make citizens happy. Citizens must make themselves happy, given that they do live in a society (so if killing makes you happy, that's your problem).

One of them yes!

No I didn't. I think I know more about my life than you.

You are welcome ;-)

You are insulting.

I was that young as you too, i admired USA and their society. Noone could convince me of the oposite. But as i became older i realized that social welfare is very important. If only one of the society is unhappy, then he makes unhappy also the others unless the others help him. People need to help each other, not hurt. In capitalism everyone wants money, money, money. They do everything for that. They dont care about that they could hurt someone. People take what isnt theirs. And the goverment doesnt give sh*t. Thats my opinion. Capitalism killed moral values.

I've never admired USA, and I never will. I wouldn't want to live in the States. However, I do think capitalism is the only way.

Rubinho, what is your opinion on euroval? I suppose you as a capitalist think that it is wrong,not natural, something artifical made by state control, am I right ?

Euroval?

(I only know that as a Dutch word, so I guess that's not what you meant.)
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Loans for pigs :)

I'm not against them IF those countries really make a change in their financial situation.

And is not bancrupcy natural for capitalism?

Why are you focusing on what is natural and what is artificial? Every form of government is artificial, so I don't see your point.

You as a capitalist should not like that "big euro rescue loans" for whole EU. That is state control like in communism. Capitalism and free market prefer cleaning system like bancrupcy is. So what you prefer?

The complete free market is an illusion. I have nothing against state intervention, I have something against large state intervention.

"euroWall maybe" is huge EU useless intervention, so now I dont believe that you are capitalist.

There is political party in Slovakia who said NO for that "euroLoanProject". I am happy that sonm slovaks are still capitalist in EU, the rest are every day closer to communism :).

As i said. You do not follow your own rules. And you do not answer arguments. There is no way to continue this discussion with you. You are amoral. And you think that everything you say must be true. But thats ok, you are 21. Seems to be the correct behaviour for your age. When youll grow up, you will have different view about the society. The sooner youll have children the sooner you will change your views.

Christopher Mccandless once said:
Happiness is only real when shared.

Bear this in mind and you'll be a better human! Thats for all of you, not only Rubinho.

I have an individualistic view on society, you have a collective view on society, that's the difference. And that's a view I'll never have. One is not 'better' or 'more moral' than the other, it's just different.

Edit: and I do follow 'my rules', you just don't get them I think.
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Capitalism killed moral values.

I sure agree with that.

I didnt live entirely in communism era, but i have seen changing society in 90s and I say many things changed to worse and society really is not healthier than it was. This is quite a contradiction to what was always said about communism that it killed moral values. And that we need new generations without burden of communism, to get the values back.

This is quite a complex problem so it is hard to find out all reasons. But some of them are obvious. Inreasing social differences can never do anything good. With increasing opportunities for more enterprising people there is also much less guaranties for the others. Increasing unempleyment rates created new social group of asocial people and it causes social violence just in these days in czech republic. Unemployment causes much more problems than it seems and it got out of control as well as increasing national debts.

Fact that employees doesnt really have any guaranties against employer, makes them to be always under pressure and afraid of losing job or reducing their salaries and they have really minimal options to defense. This is typical element of capitalism, for someone it can be good. But I dont find it any good. It makes everyone to care about him or his family only. Citizens participation is decreasing. Highest (moral) value is money. This is just step back.


I dont say communism was in its entirety good. But I say that state has tools how it can actively help get society healthier. And we should learn from that what was good in past.
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Here in Flanders, our unemployment is rather low (although employment rate is low too) and it is decreasing again. And employees have many guaranties here, our social security is very strong (too strong in my opinion).

According to Eurostat, unemployment in Czech Republic is 6,8% ...
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can you find this number for Italy? (where do you find them?)