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Asunto: »Political & economic ideologies (communism, capitalism et
I don't know if most of us, but many and that's the problem. When we had this construction boom, banks were giving loans to whoever wanted them because a construction worker could easily earn from 2000 to 3000 euros, and nowadays most of them are jobless. Spanish government had to inject money to the banks because they had lost a lot of money, yet banks aren't giving loans anymore but everytime they want to take away your stuff from you, they do.
Also, most of new "small bussiness" or the ones that were expanding themselves that that had to close were victims of those loans, and those bussiness are actually more than 70% of most cities' economy.
Also, most of new "small bussiness" or the ones that were expanding themselves that that had to close were victims of those loans, and those bussiness are actually more than 70% of most cities' economy.
Well banks are far from bankrupcy here. The Government gave them 150 million euros to "rescue" them and that year banks like Santander had a really big profit (net income), remember they even own part of a Formula 1 team...
This kind of corruption in Spain is a joke, going back to the peseta would crush the banks definetly but most of those small business will die with them, therefore making more people jobless and more people poorer.
The only ones who would benefit from this are big corporations with their headquarters out of Spain, but the employment law benefits them enough.
This kind of corruption in Spain is a joke, going back to the peseta would crush the banks definetly but most of those small business will die with them, therefore making more people jobless and more people poorer.
The only ones who would benefit from this are big corporations with their headquarters out of Spain, but the employment law benefits them enough.
The euro requires a political union, if you like it or not. That political union doesn't exist, and it seems (unfortunately) it won't exist in the near future. So for me, it is necessary the euro disappears in this format.
Slovak construction workers earn about 800-1100 e, and dont have do huge loans, so it has nothing with currency just people are stupid sheep :).
800-1100 € is the normal wage for a construction worker, but when all they do is putting one brick after another and they earn that much money they think they are powerful. I have met a pair of them who wanted a loan to buy a Mercedes or an Audi, and a bank, if they are paid ~2500€/month isn't going to say "no".Then there was another problem, since you could get a lot of well paid jobs in the construction world, many people left their studies and started working right away.
Construction bussiness would get very high loans in order to be able to build and build and houses' prices were very high, so buyers also needed loans. Then with the world crisis, people were afraid to buy and those who had bought a house saw how their value was lowering at an incredible speed, but their interests (of the loans) weren't.
And, you can't fire someone who has been working with you for 2500€ a month that easy, so a lot of construction bussiness went bankrupt and from one day to another, you saw millions of people jobless and without preparation or studies. The price of houses was so high that normal workers actually needed a loan to buy them (renting is not a common option here) because wages in another jobs weren't that huge.
So you have a lot of people without preparation completely jobless, most people who wanted a house requested a loan and they still have it, but if you want a 140000 € loan to buy a house that was worth 140000€, now it's worth 100000€ or less and it just won't sell, so even if the bank takes the house from you, you still have to pay the interests plus all that value your house lost. If you add that now a lot of small business (and not only from the construction) have gone bankrupt, you will get to see the spanish situation now: if we go back to our national currency, we are pretty much fucked up, people can't pay for their homes if they have no jobs, but their debts won't go away.
Construction bussiness would get very high loans in order to be able to build and build and houses' prices were very high, so buyers also needed loans. Then with the world crisis, people were afraid to buy and those who had bought a house saw how their value was lowering at an incredible speed, but their interests (of the loans) weren't.
And, you can't fire someone who has been working with you for 2500€ a month that easy, so a lot of construction bussiness went bankrupt and from one day to another, you saw millions of people jobless and without preparation or studies. The price of houses was so high that normal workers actually needed a loan to buy them (renting is not a common option here) because wages in another jobs weren't that huge.
So you have a lot of people without preparation completely jobless, most people who wanted a house requested a loan and they still have it, but if you want a 140000 € loan to buy a house that was worth 140000€, now it's worth 100000€ or less and it just won't sell, so even if the bank takes the house from you, you still have to pay the interests plus all that value your house lost. If you add that now a lot of small business (and not only from the construction) have gone bankrupt, you will get to see the spanish situation now: if we go back to our national currency, we are pretty much fucked up, people can't pay for their homes if they have no jobs, but their debts won't go away.
800-1100 € is the normal wage for a construction worker, but when all they do is putting one brick after another and they earn that much money they think they are powerful. I have met a pair of them who wanted a loan to buy a Mercedes or an Audi, and a bank, if they are paid ~2500€/month isn't going to say "no".
If people want a loan for a Mercedes, financial trouble is what they deserve. Don't make stupid choices. You are responsible for your choices. They are for theirs.
Then there was another problem, since you could get a lot of well paid jobs in the construction world, many people left their studies and started working right away.
See above. Not a smart choice. It's their problem, they created it.
Construction bussiness would get very high loans in order to be able to build and build and houses' prices were very high, so buyers also needed loans. Then with the world crisis, people were afraid to buy and those who had bought a house saw how their value was lowering at an incredible speed, but their interests (of the loans) weren't.
That's the risk of a loan. There's nothing to do about it. Why should the interests they pay lower when the house is worth less? The house price and the interest rate have nothing to do with each other.
And, you can't fire someone who has been working with you for 2500€ a month that easy, so a lot of construction bussiness went bankrupt and from one day to another, you saw millions of people jobless and without preparation or studies. The price of houses was so high that normal workers actually needed a loan to buy them (renting is not a common option here) because wages in another jobs weren't that huge.
This one made me laugh. It's not normal that everybody buys a house. Renting is always an option if you don't have the financial stability to pay back a loan.
So you have a lot of people without preparation completely jobless, most people who wanted a house requested a loan and they still have it, but if you want a 140000 € loan to buy a house that was worth 140000€, now it's worth 100000€ or less and it just won't sell, so even if the bank takes the house from you, you still have to pay the interests plus all that value your house lost. If you add that now a lot of small business (and not only from the construction) have gone bankrupt, you will get to see the spanish situation now: if we go back to our national currency, we are pretty much fucked up, people can't pay for their homes if they have no jobs, but their debts won't go away.
What I see here is you not talking about national currency until the last line. You describe a situation that is problematic for the people in it (although it was their choice) and then you say national currency would be worse. It would be interesting if you could actually explain why it would be worse. It wouldn't change a thing in this situation.
People make stupid choices, but they keep responsible for their choices.
(editado)
If people want a loan for a Mercedes, financial trouble is what they deserve. Don't make stupid choices. You are responsible for your choices. They are for theirs.
Then there was another problem, since you could get a lot of well paid jobs in the construction world, many people left their studies and started working right away.
See above. Not a smart choice. It's their problem, they created it.
Construction bussiness would get very high loans in order to be able to build and build and houses' prices were very high, so buyers also needed loans. Then with the world crisis, people were afraid to buy and those who had bought a house saw how their value was lowering at an incredible speed, but their interests (of the loans) weren't.
That's the risk of a loan. There's nothing to do about it. Why should the interests they pay lower when the house is worth less? The house price and the interest rate have nothing to do with each other.
And, you can't fire someone who has been working with you for 2500€ a month that easy, so a lot of construction bussiness went bankrupt and from one day to another, you saw millions of people jobless and without preparation or studies. The price of houses was so high that normal workers actually needed a loan to buy them (renting is not a common option here) because wages in another jobs weren't that huge.
This one made me laugh. It's not normal that everybody buys a house. Renting is always an option if you don't have the financial stability to pay back a loan.
So you have a lot of people without preparation completely jobless, most people who wanted a house requested a loan and they still have it, but if you want a 140000 € loan to buy a house that was worth 140000€, now it's worth 100000€ or less and it just won't sell, so even if the bank takes the house from you, you still have to pay the interests plus all that value your house lost. If you add that now a lot of small business (and not only from the construction) have gone bankrupt, you will get to see the spanish situation now: if we go back to our national currency, we are pretty much fucked up, people can't pay for their homes if they have no jobs, but their debts won't go away.
What I see here is you not talking about national currency until the last line. You describe a situation that is problematic for the people in it (although it was their choice) and then you say national currency would be worse. It would be interesting if you could actually explain why it would be worse. It wouldn't change a thing in this situation.
People make stupid choices, but they keep responsible for their choices.
(editado)
it would be worse because wages won't go up (at least in the very beginning), they will most likely go down in comparison to the euro, so our wages measured in pesetas + our debts measured in euros... bad combination.
I described the problem so you could understand why going back to our currency was not a sane choice. Compared with another countries, Spain had a very little renting rate, the vast majority of people would buy their house even if they needed a loan for that, there is a real study about that. It might not be normal for you in your country, but it's pretty common here.
edit: People are not directly responsible for their actions. If everyone is buying you will too, and this country went so well once (with an economical growth even bigger than Germany) that it was really hard to see that situation ending. The banks are to blame because they know how the economy is and how risky their decisions were. You can't make millions of people poorer in order to make a few richer.
(editado)
I described the problem so you could understand why going back to our currency was not a sane choice. Compared with another countries, Spain had a very little renting rate, the vast majority of people would buy their house even if they needed a loan for that, there is a real study about that. It might not be normal for you in your country, but it's pretty common here.
edit: People are not directly responsible for their actions. If everyone is buying you will too, and this country went so well once (with an economical growth even bigger than Germany) that it was really hard to see that situation ending. The banks are to blame because they know how the economy is and how risky their decisions were. You can't make millions of people poorer in order to make a few richer.
(editado)
it would be worse because wages won't go up (at least in the very beginning), they will most likely go down in comparison to the euro, so our wages measured in pesetas + our debts measured in euros... bad combination.
Yes, the national debt will increase. But there would be economic perspective (which doesn't really exist at the moment).
I described the problem so you could understand why going back to our currency was not a sane choice. Compared with another countries, Spain had a very little renting rate, the vast majority of people would buy their house even if they needed a loan for that, there is a real study about that. It might not be normal for you in your country, but it's pretty common here.
Here, it is very common too. If you can pay back the loan. Still, who buys the house with a loan has to bear the financial risks that come with the house.
edit: People are not directly responsible for their actions. If everyone is buying you will too, and this country went so well once (with an economical growth even bigger than Germany) that it was really hard to see that situation ending. The banks are to blame because they know how the economy is and how risky their decisions were. You can't make millions of people poorer in order to make a few richer.
The point is not to make a few richer. The point is that the Spanish economy is in deep trouble, and that affects all the Spanish citizens. It's easy to say "it's the politicians' fault", "the banks are to blame", ... At the end, it's you guys who elected your politicians. The banks did what they were allowed to.
Yes, the national debt will increase. But there would be economic perspective (which doesn't really exist at the moment).
I described the problem so you could understand why going back to our currency was not a sane choice. Compared with another countries, Spain had a very little renting rate, the vast majority of people would buy their house even if they needed a loan for that, there is a real study about that. It might not be normal for you in your country, but it's pretty common here.
Here, it is very common too. If you can pay back the loan. Still, who buys the house with a loan has to bear the financial risks that come with the house.
edit: People are not directly responsible for their actions. If everyone is buying you will too, and this country went so well once (with an economical growth even bigger than Germany) that it was really hard to see that situation ending. The banks are to blame because they know how the economy is and how risky their decisions were. You can't make millions of people poorer in order to make a few richer.
The point is not to make a few richer. The point is that the Spanish economy is in deep trouble, and that affects all the Spanish citizens. It's easy to say "it's the politicians' fault", "the banks are to blame", ... At the end, it's you guys who elected your politicians. The banks did what they were allowed to.
Yes, the national debt will increase. But there would be economic perspective (which doesn't really exist at the moment).
You are not listening, national debt isn't what matters the most here. It's citizens debt with banks, many people got loans for 10 years. So did little business that wanted to start and had nothing to do with all this boom, but got caught up in it.
Here, it is very common too. If you can pay back the loan. Still, who buys the house with a loan has to bear the financial risks that come with the house.
Well then I guess you are the kind of people that thinks, for example, that North Korea situation is their citizen's fault because they should think they could be free and they shouldn't obbey the government and blablabla, propaganda had nothing to do with it. You might see this example as a crazy one, but it isn't. Here you saw every month how well the country economy was doing in comparison with the rest of Europe. There wasn't even one sign that lead us to think something like this could happen.
Even when the crisis was starting, politicians and the media hid it. They said it was something soft and it wasn't going to last long. So we got an incompetent government who did NOTHING to make things better. Some of us saw this coming, but most people didn't. I don't know how it works in Belgium, but in Spain we don't have access to information about our economy, just what politians and the media (that sides with one of the two main political parties) say.
The point is not to make a few richer. The point is that the Spanish economy is in deep trouble, and that affects all the Spanish citizens. It's easy to say "it's the politicians' fault", "the banks are to blame", ... At the end, it's you guys who elected your politicians. The banks did what they were allowed to.
The whole Spanish economy has little visible effect on citizens. I have told you, we had two crisis in Spain, the world crisis and the construction boom, one held hands with another but the main problem started with the construction one.
It's true we chose our politicians (and I told you what happened in the last elections about hiding all that crisis stuff), and it's also true that what banks did was legal. If you are a big corporation, paying with money you don't have, bring all the money you do have to another country and then going bankrupt, creating a hole in the economy of a whole country is also legal, so is hiring kids in Thailand for a misery and in poor working conditions to sell you a 100€ hard drive. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's good and that it shouldn't be changed.
(editado)
You are not listening, national debt isn't what matters the most here. It's citizens debt with banks, many people got loans for 10 years. So did little business that wanted to start and had nothing to do with all this boom, but got caught up in it.
Here, it is very common too. If you can pay back the loan. Still, who buys the house with a loan has to bear the financial risks that come with the house.
Well then I guess you are the kind of people that thinks, for example, that North Korea situation is their citizen's fault because they should think they could be free and they shouldn't obbey the government and blablabla, propaganda had nothing to do with it. You might see this example as a crazy one, but it isn't. Here you saw every month how well the country economy was doing in comparison with the rest of Europe. There wasn't even one sign that lead us to think something like this could happen.
Even when the crisis was starting, politicians and the media hid it. They said it was something soft and it wasn't going to last long. So we got an incompetent government who did NOTHING to make things better. Some of us saw this coming, but most people didn't. I don't know how it works in Belgium, but in Spain we don't have access to information about our economy, just what politians and the media (that sides with one of the two main political parties) say.
The point is not to make a few richer. The point is that the Spanish economy is in deep trouble, and that affects all the Spanish citizens. It's easy to say "it's the politicians' fault", "the banks are to blame", ... At the end, it's you guys who elected your politicians. The banks did what they were allowed to.
The whole Spanish economy has little visible effect on citizens. I have told you, we had two crisis in Spain, the world crisis and the construction boom, one held hands with another but the main problem started with the construction one.
It's true we chose our politicians (and I told you what happened in the last elections about hiding all that crisis stuff), and it's also true that what banks did was legal. If you are a big corporation, paying with money you don't have, bring all the money you do have to another country and then going bankrupt, creating a hole in the economy of a whole country is also legal, so is hiring kids in Thailand for a misery and in poor working conditions to sell you a 100€ hard drive. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's good and that it shouldn't be changed.
(editado)
You are not listening, national debt isn't what matters the most here. It's citizens debt with banks, many people got loans for 10 years.
Private debt will not be affected by the return to peseta. Simple as that.
Well then I guess you are the kind of people that thinks, for example, that North Korea situation is their citizen's fault because they should think they could be free and they shouldn't obbey the government and blablabla, propaganda had nothing to do with it. You might see this example as a crazy one, but it isn't. Here you saw every month how well the country economy was doing in comparison with the rest of Europe. There wasn't even one sign that lead us to think something like this could happen.
The North Korean situation is in no way comparable with this situation. When you buy a good (a house), you are responsible for the (financial) risks of that good. Basic private right.
Of course this could happen. It's called a housing bubble. You know such thing can happen, a crisis can happen.
Even when the crisis was starting, politicians and the media hid it. They said it was something soft and it wasn't going to last long. So we got an incompetent government who did NOTHING to make things better. Some of us saw this coming, but most people didn't. I don't know how it works in Belgium, but in Spain we don't have access to information about our economy, just what politians and the media (that sides with one of the two main political parties) say.
I don't believe you. There are things that are accessible, like Eurostat, the Spanish national bank, ...
It's true we chose our politicians (and I told you what happened in the last elections about hiding all that crisis stuff), and it's also true that what banks did was legal. If you are a big corporation, paying with money you don't have, bring all the money you do have to another country and then going bankrupt, creating a hole in the economy of a whole country is also legal, so is hiring kids in Thailand for a misery and in poor working conditions to sell you a 100€ hard drive. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's good and that it shouldn't be changed.
Any example of private corporations that payed with money they don't have? Hiring kids in Thailand is not legal and is immoral. Making profits is legal and not immoral.
Private debt will not be affected by the return to peseta. Simple as that.
Well then I guess you are the kind of people that thinks, for example, that North Korea situation is their citizen's fault because they should think they could be free and they shouldn't obbey the government and blablabla, propaganda had nothing to do with it. You might see this example as a crazy one, but it isn't. Here you saw every month how well the country economy was doing in comparison with the rest of Europe. There wasn't even one sign that lead us to think something like this could happen.
The North Korean situation is in no way comparable with this situation. When you buy a good (a house), you are responsible for the (financial) risks of that good. Basic private right.
Of course this could happen. It's called a housing bubble. You know such thing can happen, a crisis can happen.
Even when the crisis was starting, politicians and the media hid it. They said it was something soft and it wasn't going to last long. So we got an incompetent government who did NOTHING to make things better. Some of us saw this coming, but most people didn't. I don't know how it works in Belgium, but in Spain we don't have access to information about our economy, just what politians and the media (that sides with one of the two main political parties) say.
I don't believe you. There are things that are accessible, like Eurostat, the Spanish national bank, ...
It's true we chose our politicians (and I told you what happened in the last elections about hiding all that crisis stuff), and it's also true that what banks did was legal. If you are a big corporation, paying with money you don't have, bring all the money you do have to another country and then going bankrupt, creating a hole in the economy of a whole country is also legal, so is hiring kids in Thailand for a misery and in poor working conditions to sell you a 100€ hard drive. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's good and that it shouldn't be changed.
Any example of private corporations that payed with money they don't have? Hiring kids in Thailand is not legal and is immoral. Making profits is legal and not immoral.
Private debt will not be affected by the return to peseta. Simple as that.
Yes it will, wages will go down due to the return of the peseta but our debts will be measured in euros. Higher debts for smaller wages.
I don't believe you. There are things that are accessible, like Eurostat, the Spanish national bank, ...
There was a scandal recently about our last government lying about the economical situation of our "autonomous communities", they said there was only 6% deficit and when the actual government came in they found more than 8,6% deficit and the situation was much worse.
There was also this other scandal about an European country lying about their economical status. So misinformation is up to date.
Any example of private corporations that payed with money they don't have? Hiring kids in Thailand is not legal and is immoral. Making profits is legal and not immoral.
There was a big scandal in the US some years ago, can't remember who was involved though, and anyway you see this with the banks, when you put money in your bank account, the bank uses it telling you it's yours, but you don't have it (and a bank can go bankrupt and make everyone's money disappear).
Hiring kids in Thailand is legal, it might be immoral, but it allows you to make a big profit and that for you is legal and moral.
There was this example about an IBM fabric causing a lot of pollution and everyone complaining about it, but it wasn't illegal until you could prove it had an impact on health (and by then it would be too late) and guess what, it wasn't even proved, even though pollution is there.
(editado)
Yes it will, wages will go down due to the return of the peseta but our debts will be measured in euros. Higher debts for smaller wages.
I don't believe you. There are things that are accessible, like Eurostat, the Spanish national bank, ...
There was a scandal recently about our last government lying about the economical situation of our "autonomous communities", they said there was only 6% deficit and when the actual government came in they found more than 8,6% deficit and the situation was much worse.
There was also this other scandal about an European country lying about their economical status. So misinformation is up to date.
Any example of private corporations that payed with money they don't have? Hiring kids in Thailand is not legal and is immoral. Making profits is legal and not immoral.
There was a big scandal in the US some years ago, can't remember who was involved though, and anyway you see this with the banks, when you put money in your bank account, the bank uses it telling you it's yours, but you don't have it (and a bank can go bankrupt and make everyone's money disappear).
Hiring kids in Thailand is legal, it might be immoral, but it allows you to make a big profit and that for you is legal and moral.
There was this example about an IBM fabric causing a lot of pollution and everyone complaining about it, but it wasn't illegal until you could prove it had an impact on health (and by then it would be too late) and guess what, it wasn't even proved, even though pollution is there.
(editado)
Yes it will, wages will go down due to the return of the peseta but our debts will be measured in euros. Higher debts for smaller wages.
Not true. Debt will be in peseta.
There was a scandal recently about our last government lying about the economical situation of our "autonomous communities", they said there was only 6% deficit and when the actual government came in they found more than 8,6% deficit and the situation was much worse. There was also this other scandal about an European country lying about their economical status. So misinformation is up to date.
Doesn't make any difference. You are still responsible.
There was a big scandal in the US some years ago, can't remember who was involved though, and anyway you see this with the banks, when you put money in your bank account, the bank uses it telling you it's yours, but you don't have it (and a bank can go bankrupt and make everyone's money disappear).
Little vague, no? ;-)
Hiring kids in Thailand is legal, it might be immoral, but it allows you to make a big profit and that for you is legal and moral.
Making profit by hiring kids is immoral.
There was this example about an IBM fabric causing a lot of pollution and everyone complaining about it, but it wasn't illegal until you could prove it had an impact on health (and by then it would be too late) and guess what, it wasn't even proved, even though pollution is there.
Relevance?
Not true. Debt will be in peseta.
There was a scandal recently about our last government lying about the economical situation of our "autonomous communities", they said there was only 6% deficit and when the actual government came in they found more than 8,6% deficit and the situation was much worse. There was also this other scandal about an European country lying about their economical status. So misinformation is up to date.
Doesn't make any difference. You are still responsible.
There was a big scandal in the US some years ago, can't remember who was involved though, and anyway you see this with the banks, when you put money in your bank account, the bank uses it telling you it's yours, but you don't have it (and a bank can go bankrupt and make everyone's money disappear).
Little vague, no? ;-)
Hiring kids in Thailand is legal, it might be immoral, but it allows you to make a big profit and that for you is legal and moral.
Making profit by hiring kids is immoral.
There was this example about an IBM fabric causing a lot of pollution and everyone complaining about it, but it wasn't illegal until you could prove it had an impact on health (and by then it would be too late) and guess what, it wasn't even proved, even though pollution is there.
Relevance?
Not true. Debt will be in peseta.
What I meant is that you will pay the same amount of pesetas as the debt value in euros. However the wages won't be as high as they were now with the euro.
Doesn't make any difference. You are still responsible.
So first we were to blame because we could have got more information. Now we are to blame because they lied to us. I see your point. We aren't to blame but we are blamed for something we could do little about.
Little vague, no? ;-)
Here you are, and another one. And a good article about this:
Too many Americans read the headline and not the facts. Those Enron assets did not just disappear. They were parked offshore, outside of the jurisdiction of the US Bankruptcy Court and a group of people walked off with tens of billions in assets that were paid for by the equity shareholders of that company. They got $0 in the bankruptcy and a group of predators walked off with tens of billions of offshore Enron assets.
Making profit by hiring kids is immoral.
We agree there, but you can't legally blame the corporations. If it's spanish citizens fault because you can't legally blame anyone else , then corporations in Thailand are doing nothing wrong.
Relevance?
Just another example about how (or who) you can legally blame for some actions isn't the same as who's really guilty about it.
What I meant is that you will pay the same amount of pesetas as the debt value in euros. However the wages won't be as high as they were now with the euro.
Doesn't make any difference. You are still responsible.
So first we were to blame because we could have got more information. Now we are to blame because they lied to us. I see your point. We aren't to blame but we are blamed for something we could do little about.
Little vague, no? ;-)
Here you are, and another one. And a good article about this:
Too many Americans read the headline and not the facts. Those Enron assets did not just disappear. They were parked offshore, outside of the jurisdiction of the US Bankruptcy Court and a group of people walked off with tens of billions in assets that were paid for by the equity shareholders of that company. They got $0 in the bankruptcy and a group of predators walked off with tens of billions of offshore Enron assets.
Making profit by hiring kids is immoral.
We agree there, but you can't legally blame the corporations. If it's spanish citizens fault because you can't legally blame anyone else , then corporations in Thailand are doing nothing wrong.
Relevance?
Just another example about how (or who) you can legally blame for some actions isn't the same as who's really guilty about it.
What I meant is that you will pay the same amount of pesetas as the debt value in euros. However the wages won't be as high as they were now with the euro.
Depends on the devaluation. This might happen, yes, if the devaluation wasn't strong enough.
So first we were to blame because we could have got more information. Now we are to blame because they lied to us. I see your point. We aren't to blame but we are blamed for something we could do little about.
I don't blame you for that. I say you are responsible. Like the Germans were responsible (financially) for the actions of a certain Adolf Hitler in the last century. The Germans couldn't do very much themselves, they lived under a totalitarian tyranny. However, they had to pay for WW I and WW II. Although I don't blame the Germans back then for what Hitler did, it was normal they have to pay for it. Just like the Greeks have to pay for the troubles their politicians brought them into.
Here you are, and another one. And a good article about this:
Madoff and Enron: just fraud. How is that relevant with your situation? (It was about banks, Madoff and Enron weren't banks.)
We agree there, but you can't legally blame the corporations. If it's spanish citizens fault because you can't legally blame anyone else , then corporations in Thailand are doing nothing wrong.
I have never said it was the Spanish citizens' fault. Never. I just say you are financially responsible. And we can blame those corporations (that hire kids), because of the immoral behavior.
Just another example about how (or who) you can legally blame for some actions isn't the same as who's really guilty about it.
See above.
Depends on the devaluation. This might happen, yes, if the devaluation wasn't strong enough.
So first we were to blame because we could have got more information. Now we are to blame because they lied to us. I see your point. We aren't to blame but we are blamed for something we could do little about.
I don't blame you for that. I say you are responsible. Like the Germans were responsible (financially) for the actions of a certain Adolf Hitler in the last century. The Germans couldn't do very much themselves, they lived under a totalitarian tyranny. However, they had to pay for WW I and WW II. Although I don't blame the Germans back then for what Hitler did, it was normal they have to pay for it. Just like the Greeks have to pay for the troubles their politicians brought them into.
Here you are, and another one. And a good article about this:
Madoff and Enron: just fraud. How is that relevant with your situation? (It was about banks, Madoff and Enron weren't banks.)
We agree there, but you can't legally blame the corporations. If it's spanish citizens fault because you can't legally blame anyone else , then corporations in Thailand are doing nothing wrong.
I have never said it was the Spanish citizens' fault. Never. I just say you are financially responsible. And we can blame those corporations (that hire kids), because of the immoral behavior.
Just another example about how (or who) you can legally blame for some actions isn't the same as who's really guilty about it.
See above.
