Asunto: »Political & economic ideologies (communism, capitalism et

In the Netherlands a group is trying a lot and also succeeded partly, like lowering the minimum wages and unemployment benefits, retirement age, less labor rights so it's easier to fire employees etc etc.

If you consider those social rights, I agree with the people who want to reduce those social rights. Lowering minimum wages can create employment. Lowering unemployment benefits will stimulate people to search a job. Increasing retirement age is necessary to make sure the social security doesn't go broke. Making it easier to fire employees (for instance because of reduced demand) will make that corporations will be less conservative when there is need for new employees (now, they don't search new employees when demand increases because they will not be able to fire them when demand decreases again).

It's easy to break down a certain ideology, it's a lot more difficult to come with an alternative. TINA

it's a lot more difficult to come with an alternative

Indeed, and that's not happening at the moment. The world elite keeps supporting a sick systeem that is on life support as they benefit the most by this system.

But I can't explain it better as that docu, they have studied this subject all over.
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If it was that easy ;) that's one side of the story. The other side is an x number of employees are needed in a company, more isn't needed, also not with lower wages. In this case lower wages is just another way of cost efficiency, in other words, more profits for share holders and other parties that will benifit by these higher profits.

The point is that with minimum wages, you destroy employment (which creates pressure on the social security as unemployment benefits). Nothing to do with profit for shareholders whatsoever.

Let me put it this way: imagine a minimum wage of 1.200 euro. Imagine a job with a value for the company of 1.050 euro. Ergo, the job will not be created, because the company would make a loss with it. The guy (who doesn't get the job) therefore receives an unemployment benefit (ceteris paribus) without contributing to the social security. If there was no minimum wage, the job would be created, for instance for a loan of 1.000 euro (so that the company makes a small profit). You will have tax income (as they guy will earn something and will pay taxes) and you won't have to pay an unemployment benefit. Win-win-win-situation (for both the employer, employee and the state).

You can always come up with cases that would work with lower wages. But most people also have fixed costs in life, like rent/mortgage, electricity and water, foods and drinks, school, healthcare, car/travel, etc etc etc. If those are lowered too, then your example could work, but these costs don't go down, only up and not only because of inflation.

So win-win-win in Utopia, but not in normal life.

I was trying to write down this...

If the returns of adding an employee are 1200 and the minimum wages is 1300, you are not going to hire somebody. Should the minimum wage go down to 1150, you earn money if you hire the extra guy. Offering additional service (somebody delivering goods, operating additional public transport services, somebody giving advice etc.) for example becomes cheaper. There is also the effect, I would say, that some goods and services have to become cheaper. People with the lower wages might not be able to afford them anymore, and thus, companies offering these goods and services will lower their prices (because they can also hire cheaper labour).

It is definitely possible though that some of the money will end up in the pockets of the share holders and stuff, but it is definitely not as black and white as you sketch it here. Then it is the question, do the additional benefits of more employment (not only economically, but also in terms of a better skilled workforce, etc.) weigh up against possibly a bit more money in the pockets of the share holders. I would say yes.

You can always come up with cases that would work with lower wages. But most people also have fixed costs in life, like rent/mortgage, electricity and water, foods and drinks, school, healthcare, car/travel, etc etc etc.

Really? You're using the fact that people give money to travel as an example why wages can't be any lower than the minimum wage? Really?

The point is that the guy wouldn't have a job if the minimum wage was maintained and therefore would even be worse of.

If those are lowered too, then your example could work, but these costs don't go down, only up and not only because of inflation.

No, 'cause then the value of the job itself (due to deflation) would be lower too, wage would be lowered, ...

You are a true conservative (in the meaning of don't touch our 'rights'). You forget however that 'our rights' will become the inherited burden of the coming generations (including mine).
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Making it easier to fire employees (for instance because of reduced demand) will make that corporations will be less conservative when there is need for new employees (now, they don't search new employees when demand increases because they will not be able to fire them when demand decreases again).
I am a bit more skeptical about this, because this could also lead to an increase in unemployment, if companies ditch people that are not working. This can be a good thing, but it will place a burden on the system of unemployment benefits (at least temporarily).

The problem is that people that are already trying to live with to little will get even less and won't be able to live normally anymore. 'Voedselbanken' are never been visited that much before as nowadays, more and more people are using their savings to make it to the end of the month but this money will be gone soon, what happens then? I know a few possibilities, more depts, more unnecessary death, more criminality, more riots .... eventually maybe even war.

And products won't become cheaper because production costs go down, that's way to optimistic and totally not realistic to hope for. Everything will become more expensive over time as more people on this planet has to live with the same as we had and have today, food, water, oil, raw materials like metal, etc etc. Services can become cheaper (I don't think that will happen), but we don't need those as hard as the basics in life as food, water, shelter.

Really? You're using the fact that people give money to travel as an example why wages can't be any lower than the minimum wage? Really?

Pfff .... car/travel I wrote. Do you really don't understand what I mean by that? Do you think I mean holiday? Besides, people need holidays to not get stressed, so yes holidays could even be in that list. Specially with your idea of less labor rights, if they have to perform 120% every day so they don't get fired and replaced ......

No, 'cause then the value of the job itself (due to deflation) would be lower too, wage would be lowered, ...

See comment of mine to mjakk. Totally unrealistic to think this will happen. Never did and never will without government rules.

You are a true conservative (in the meaning of don't touch our 'rights'). You forget however that 'our rights' will become the inherited burden of the coming generations (including mine).

Without rights the most agressive and inhumane will rule this world, that would be the worst inherited burden!

Pfff .... car/travel I wrote. Do you really don't understand what I mean by that? Do you think I mean holiday? Besides, people need holidays to not get stressed, so yes holidays could even be in that list. Specially with your idea of less labor rights, if they have to perform 120% every day so they don't get fired and replaced ......

I'm not counting 'people need a holiday' as a real argument. Really.

See comment of mine to mjakk. Totally unrealistic to think this will happen. Never did and never will without government rules.

You see, I didn't even say that. My comment was an answer on the first part of your sentence.

Without rights the most agressive and inhumane will rule this world, that would be the worst inherited burden!

Yes, I want to remove all rights. That's how I am. Be serious.

Shareholders absolutely do not care about humans... A human is only a cost for them... Too much cost, fire him... Their own goal for humanity is clear : maximize the stress and the level of working (which still cost less than robots) to avoid humanity to think and then just abuse of the need of satisfaction fo desire of each human by manipulation of communication (adverstising, marketing, culpability)... The present is only turned of abusing of humanity like robots acting...

Le nouveau Mélenchon est arrivé.

I am quite sure that some prices would lower (some goods are too capital intensive, though). For price-elastic goods it will definitely pay-off to make them cheaper.

Besides, if you are concerned about the finite amount of resources, the possibility for food production etc, than please bear in mind that if our (Dutch) wages would halve, we would still be able to buy more food and resources than the world average. Hence, there is a double moral standard hidden in your post of protecting the rights of the Dutch to buy their (too large) share over the rights of other people to buy their fair share.

Without rights the most agressive and inhumane will rule this world, that would be the worst inherited burden! We are not talking about abolishing rights, just changing them. Not every right is good at every point, and some rights can be contraproductive at some point. And just because it is a right, it doesn't mean that it should always be maintained without discussion. I have the right to question your rights.

Alright, I know now again why I don't want to discuss these things with you:

I'm not counting 'people need a holiday' as a real argument. Really.

If you don't understand the need to relax after a year of hard work, you know nothing about important needs in life. Maybe you remember these words when you have a burn-out in 20 years ....

If you don't understand the need to relax after a year of hard work, you know nothing about important needs in life. Maybe you remember these words when you have a burn-out in 20 years ....

You just don't understand that I'm not a collectivist like you. Holiday is an individual choice. End of story.