Asunto: »Political & economic ideologies (communism, capitalism et

The solution you suggest and free trade are in contradiction. You're suggesting a form of protectionism... :P

Unless the 'protectionism' comes out of the market. If people only want to buy certified goods (or goods from countries with adequate legislation), maybe the production costs will be a bit higher, but the goods are produced in good circumstances. Is it still protectionism then?

Yes, if you're restricting the trade in any way, you could possibly call it a certain form of protectionism. That definitly wouldn't be free trade any more.

But I just wanted to point out the contradiction in Valenciano's last posting.

I already told my opinion about free trade, I won't continue discussing about it, unless you make a really good remark/assertion.

The more a nation is free tha more poor people there are in.

That's it. Your ideas are too dumb to discuss them.

Well I read again and I have to blame my misunderstanding!
Exscuse me, I've thougth to read somethin else!!!

no contradiction, in free trade world there shouldn be sooo big salary differences, because then china is like "cheating the game" , im not against free trade, but against free trade with countries who treat their workers as slaves

you know, is like maths, how many people in your country does own or work in a non statal company? many people isnt it?

is it fair to screw all these people because the consumers can get cheaper products? if the price is against the 80-90% of people, i say dont

i dont mind in free trade with rest of europe, with america, with south america even in some of these places salarys are shorter than here

but the chinsese slaves working for nothing so making really cheap products ( not salary cost already) is cheating and screawing up countries


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So untrue.

First of all, you forget that those people "who get screwed" are consumers too. So the 'normal people' also benefit from the cheap prices (and clothes etc. are way cheaper when they come from China; I wouldn't be surprised if the price of clothes would at least double if you stop the trade with China).

So if you stop that trade, you lose welfare too (because of the higher costs). Look, there is clear evidence that free trade is beneficial. Look at the basic theory of Ricardo.

I really can't believe that in the Europe of the 21th century, people still believe in protectionism and oppose free trade. You're looking at one side of medal. Try to see the other side.

Trade is the core of welfare.
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i know these screwed people are also consumers, not only workers ( or owners)


you know, free trade, you have a company, you make tables. I also have a table company

you pay your workers according to your laws. I pay mines 100 euros per month

you will want free trade with me? it dosent mind your quality product, neither your habilities running the company, you will be screwed. So its unfair

free trade not a religion, should be aplied except if some player is cheating. nad clearlky, china is cheating


So if you stop that trade, you lose welfare too (because of the higher costs).

ok, i dont deny this, you should have expensiver goods, but as no fabrics closing, and not unemployment rising, people will have more money to expend in the expensiver goods

we lose more welfare lettng china do this
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you will want free trade with me? it dosent mind your quality product, neither your habilities running the company, you will be screwed. So its unfair

I will be in favor of free trade, yes. Because I know that it is beneficial if I do something else because apparently, I have a serious competitive disadvantage in that market.

china is cheating

That depends on what you consider 'the rules of free trade'.

Europe is cheating too by the way. Look at our massive amount of subsidies (for instance to the farming sector).

we lose more welfare lettng china do this

We really don't. So we lost thousands of jobs. It's really worth it in exchange for cheap products. China needs us and we need China. Stopping trade with China would really kill our and their economy.

It happens everywhere. You lose jobs to China, we lose jobs to Southern (Ford) and Eastern European countries. In our constructing sector, a lot of Poles are working instead of Belgians because they are cheaper. It's a natural process.

well the subsidies to farm productions, are because if you enter in war..you will need food production! if you buy all your food to, lets say morocco, because is cheaper to you to buy it there instead of "making" it in your country , and you enter in a war with morocco, what could happen? thats why the PAC ( spanish name, dont know in english) works for

Stopping trade with China would really kill our and their economy.

would kill their economy, but why ours? not so big exportations to china, but big importations

do you know the price of a container ( big box) , from valencia to china, by boat? its around 100 euros

the opposite is way expensiver, thats because there are a lot of importations rom china but really little exportations

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I really can't believe that in the Europe of the 21th century, people still believe in protectionism and oppose free trade. You're looking at one side of medal. Try to see the other side.

Maybe you're messing up terms. I'm for protectionism, not for isolationism (complete opposite to free trade).

well the subsidies to farm productions, are because if you enter in war..you will need food production! if you buy all your food to, lets say morocco, because is cheaper to you to buy it there instead of "making" it in your country , and you enter in a war with morocco, what could happen? thats why the PAC ( spanish name, dont know in english) works for

You probably mean CAP (Common Agricultural Policy, or as my professor European Integration calls it: Communist Agricultural Policy). And the least one can say is that the CAP was not installed in case of a war with non-members. It really wasn't. It was asked by France because the Germans got the union market (for their industrial products). The CAP is a complete disaster, is horrible for the African economy and is a very serious violation of free trade. So you cannot say: "I don't want free trade with China because they are underpaying their employees" while sticking to your own subsidies. That would be imperialistic behavior.

not so big exportations to china, but big importations

Indeed. That's why it would kill our economy. You are out of your mind suggesting to stop trade with China.

do you know the price of a container ( big box) , from valencia to china, by boat? its around 100 euros

I don't see the relevance.

Maybe you're messing up terms. I'm for protectionism, not for isolationism (complete opposite to free trade).

I'm not messing up terms. I never said you are an isolationist. I'm saying you're a protectionist, and I cannot believe you studied this thoroughly, because otherwise, you wouldn't be a protectionist ;-)

Just wanted to be sure about that ;)

relevance by that we will stop big importations (=many chineses screwed)&aour factories raising, and little exportations (=so little people from here screwed)

about the pac, yeah thats the history, he begining, nowadays the reason i think is that strategic ( and logic) view, even industrial a country needs food production

Because we export very little to china, and imprt a lot (benefit to chinese fabrics) , it would screw them not us, imo

You stucked in mercantilism it seems. When somebody makes same things cheaper its making economy more efficient. Its not profititable only for producer but also for customers. There will be allways differences in labour costs, remove Chinese and you will have Indian producer, remove Chinese and Indian producers and you will get Russian producer ...remove Russian producer and you will get Czech one. That way you can get to small market of Valencia. The only noticeable difference will be that you will gradually pay more for same product and shortage until will new producers start producing. This all will be additional costs.
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