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Asunto: »Political & economic ideologies (communism, capitalism et
I knew you'd say this. The tax payer is not a client of the state however. He is a victim.
Doesn't matter.
You said 'money is money'. So what difference does it make if it is a victim, or a client...? money is money, right?
Did Jews who staid in Nazi Germany agreed with the Nuremberg laws?
well, they got the option to leave the country :P
So no, it's not because he lives there that he agrees that he should pay property tax.
No. But by buying and acquiring property you agree with everything that is connected with it, amongst others also the taxes.
Following your logic of agreeing - I live in Poland, but I do not agree to be Polish. So what that I was born in Poland and I live in Poland? I demand another nationality, I would like to become a Tralfamadorian:)
See above. He does not agree with the tax.
Well then, I do not agree to pay the toll for highways. Or to buy the ticket for public transportation. Or a football game.
Doesn't matter.
You said 'money is money'. So what difference does it make if it is a victim, or a client...? money is money, right?
Did Jews who staid in Nazi Germany agreed with the Nuremberg laws?
well, they got the option to leave the country :P
So no, it's not because he lives there that he agrees that he should pay property tax.
No. But by buying and acquiring property you agree with everything that is connected with it, amongst others also the taxes.
Following your logic of agreeing - I live in Poland, but I do not agree to be Polish. So what that I was born in Poland and I live in Poland? I demand another nationality, I would like to become a Tralfamadorian:)
See above. He does not agree with the tax.
Well then, I do not agree to pay the toll for highways. Or to buy the ticket for public transportation. Or a football game.
So what difference does it make if it is a victim, or a client...? money is money, right?
The difference is the force of payment. With a client, the client can always go to a competitor if they accept small coins. With the state, you're forced to pay, so they should accept every paying method.
well, they got the option to leave the country :P
You cannot put an argument away with that, even if you use a smiley. You have nothing to say to my argument, so I'll assume you've realized I was right on this point.
But by buying and acquiring property you agree with everything that is connected with it, amongst others also the taxes.
Not necessarily. He pays, so in a way, he agrees (because he knows you cannot win a fight from the government). That does not mean he actually agrees with it (if you get what I mean).
So what that I was born in Poland and I live in Poland? I demand another nationality, I would like to become a Tralfamadorian:)
Nationalities are stupid. If you want to call yourself a Tralfamadorian, go ahead. Why do you need confirmation of this by a government by getting a passport?
Well then, I do not agree to pay the toll for highways. Or to buy the ticket for public transportation.
That's why those things should be private. Then you actually have a choice: use them and pay for them, or don't use them and don't pay for them. Now you pay for them, regardless if you use them or not.
Or a football game.
A football game is a private service, so you don't have to pay for anything. You won't be able to see it live of course, but I guess that's the point of paying.
The difference is the force of payment. With a client, the client can always go to a competitor if they accept small coins. With the state, you're forced to pay, so they should accept every paying method.
well, they got the option to leave the country :P
You cannot put an argument away with that, even if you use a smiley. You have nothing to say to my argument, so I'll assume you've realized I was right on this point.
But by buying and acquiring property you agree with everything that is connected with it, amongst others also the taxes.
Not necessarily. He pays, so in a way, he agrees (because he knows you cannot win a fight from the government). That does not mean he actually agrees with it (if you get what I mean).
So what that I was born in Poland and I live in Poland? I demand another nationality, I would like to become a Tralfamadorian:)
Nationalities are stupid. If you want to call yourself a Tralfamadorian, go ahead. Why do you need confirmation of this by a government by getting a passport?
Well then, I do not agree to pay the toll for highways. Or to buy the ticket for public transportation.
That's why those things should be private. Then you actually have a choice: use them and pay for them, or don't use them and don't pay for them. Now you pay for them, regardless if you use them or not.
Or a football game.
A football game is a private service, so you don't have to pay for anything. You won't be able to see it live of course, but I guess that's the point of paying.
You have a strange definition of theft.
On one hand, an investment corporation speculates on primary ressources. You call it immoral profit, even though it influences the price of that ressource for everyone. Everyone pays more, paying for the profit this corporation makes, with nothing in exchange. For you: no theft.
On the other hand, a state rises taxes, to pay for the public debt, but also fully or partially the administration in the country (schools, university, healthcare, firemen, police, military (only if available), different social helps (like retirement, invalidity), energy supply (if not privatised), road/highway network).
For you: theft
I can't follow your logic, if there's any.
But to be honest, I wouldn't wanna live in Belgium either. ;)
On one hand, an investment corporation speculates on primary ressources. You call it immoral profit, even though it influences the price of that ressource for everyone. Everyone pays more, paying for the profit this corporation makes, with nothing in exchange. For you: no theft.
On the other hand, a state rises taxes, to pay for the public debt, but also fully or partially the administration in the country (schools, university, healthcare, firemen, police, military (only if available), different social helps (like retirement, invalidity), energy supply (if not privatised), road/highway network).
For you: theft
I can't follow your logic, if there's any.
But to be honest, I wouldn't wanna live in Belgium either. ;)
btw, the argument ad hitlerum shows, that you're out of arguments. Pretty mean, probably never right and totally unnecessary.
Is it so hard to say: yes, you're right. I haven't thought about it on this perspective. It seems like I need to reflect on that. Thank you for this enlighting talk/chat.
Is it so hard to say: yes, you're right. I haven't thought about it on this perspective. It seems like I need to reflect on that. Thank you for this enlighting talk/chat.
I can't follow your logic, if there's any.
Theft = taken directly and against the will of the victim. That's the logic.
A shift in prices (which leads to profit) is not taken from anyone. You don't have a right to sell at the same price. And it most certainly is not taken directly.
Theft = taken directly and against the will of the victim. That's the logic.
A shift in prices (which leads to profit) is not taken from anyone. You don't have a right to sell at the same price. And it most certainly is not taken directly.
btw, the argument ad hitlerum shows, that you're out of arguments.
That's not a reductio ad Hitlerum. A reductio ad Hitlerum is comparing someone (or his views) with Hitler, or saying: Hitler was German, so Germans are evil. It's not because "Nazi Germany" and "Jews" are used in one sentence, that it's a reductio ad Hitlerum.
Is it so hard to say: yes, you're right.
Well, yeah, it is hard to say. Especially when people are wrong. I always learned that lying is bad.
That's not a reductio ad Hitlerum. A reductio ad Hitlerum is comparing someone (or his views) with Hitler, or saying: Hitler was German, so Germans are evil. It's not because "Nazi Germany" and "Jews" are used in one sentence, that it's a reductio ad Hitlerum.
Is it so hard to say: yes, you're right.
Well, yeah, it is hard to say. Especially when people are wrong. I always learned that lying is bad.
A goverment can also be viewed a a private company... They use tools that the mass of people want : democraty. Give me your vote and i will give you a free school, a free hospital, a cheap motorway... But you have the choice to use another private school, another private hospital and so on... The big difference is that goverment has more power to gain an army and a police to maintain order for trade than any other private company :-)
You are free to vote for any leader of the company "Goverment" you want or not... After that, they choice to act as competition can give them power to use tools they can : taxes, laws...
What want the world : having power to get freedom... You can use every tool possible to use at a time... Here, the more efficient tool is democraty. You can have power by dominating rules of trade with bank speculation or inventing new technology ever and ever or being a goverment leader :-)
You are free to vote for any leader of the company "Goverment" you want or not... After that, they choice to act as competition can give them power to use tools they can : taxes, laws...
What want the world : having power to get freedom... You can use every tool possible to use at a time... Here, the more efficient tool is democraty. You can have power by dominating rules of trade with bank speculation or inventing new technology ever and ever or being a goverment leader :-)
A goverment can also be viewed a a private company... They use tools that the mass of people want : democraty.
No. Most people want it, but not all. You use a democratic tool ('the majority wants it') to decide that democracy is wanted.
Give me your vote and i will give you a free school, a free hospital, a cheap motorway...
Free? There's nothing free, Stef. Nothing ever is. It's more like an "all-inclusive", but a rather expensive one looking at the taxation level in countries like Belgium or France.
But you have the choice to use another private school, another private hospital and so on...
And yet, you have to pay for the public schools and hospitals too, even if you never use them.
You can have power by dominating rules of trade with bank speculation or inventing new technology ever and ever or being a goverment leader
I don't want to dominate the rules. I just don't want anyone else dominating them.
No. Most people want it, but not all. You use a democratic tool ('the majority wants it') to decide that democracy is wanted.
Give me your vote and i will give you a free school, a free hospital, a cheap motorway...
Free? There's nothing free, Stef. Nothing ever is. It's more like an "all-inclusive", but a rather expensive one looking at the taxation level in countries like Belgium or France.
But you have the choice to use another private school, another private hospital and so on...
And yet, you have to pay for the public schools and hospitals too, even if you never use them.
You can have power by dominating rules of trade with bank speculation or inventing new technology ever and ever or being a goverment leader
I don't want to dominate the rules. I just don't want anyone else dominating them.
I did not say that it is free, i only get the argumentation of goverment to advertise the population and any company try to advertise the customers to attract them to buy their product... ;-)
You don' t want to dominate the rules but domination is not a specialty of human beings, it is included into life... Dominate to live... And in free trade, it is more real than in close market... The whole life is around domination and risks to live... If we want to avoid this, we have to turn to collectivist way.
But in a real dominating and risky world like ours, we have to live and fight against any dominant whereas those same dominants protect the mass to live more freely their domination...
You don' t want to dominate the rules but domination is not a specialty of human beings, it is included into life... Dominate to live... And in free trade, it is more real than in close market... The whole life is around domination and risks to live... If we want to avoid this, we have to turn to collectivist way.
But in a real dominating and risky world like ours, we have to live and fight against any dominant whereas those same dominants protect the mass to live more freely their domination...
Theft = taken directly and against the will of the victim. That's the logic.
You're staying willingly in your country, so taxes are not theft, because you willingly stay there, and have to accept the condition of that (=laws, including paying taxes). What's your point?
You're staying willingly in your country, so taxes are not theft, because you willingly stay there, and have to accept the condition of that (=laws, including paying taxes). What's your point?
I already countered that 'argument' (see my reply to Borkos; once again, that reply is not a reductio ad Hitlerum; also, I gave the example of apartheid). You haven't countered the logic behind my definition of theft though.
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Well, yeah, it is hard to say. Especially when people are wrong. I always learned that lying is bad.
I meant it not only when you think you're right. You don't to even consider, that someone else might be right. Not really sharp-minded, I might say not sharp at all.
There are 3 kind of truths. One for each side, and also one from a neutral point of view. That's why I was writing about perspective.
I'm not right all the time, no one is, except a sophist (who seems to be right all time). But I assure you, if you're a sophist, the truth is no use for you, because sophist doesn't care about it...
I meant it not only when you think you're right. You don't to even consider, that someone else might be right. Not really sharp-minded, I might say not sharp at all.
There are 3 kind of truths. One for each side, and also one from a neutral point of view. That's why I was writing about perspective.
I'm not right all the time, no one is, except a sophist (who seems to be right all time). But I assure you, if you're a sophist, the truth is no use for you, because sophist doesn't care about it...
