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Asunto: »Political & economic ideologies (communism, capitalism et
Not voting isn't some kind of "rebel" position, but just a way for the main parties to keep their influence. And/or a sort of delegation to other citizens to decide for you. Now, don't know how is in Belgium, but in Italy we have a lot dumb people voting...
Even if I go voting, the main parties will keep their influence. Belgium is a true particracy.
And yes, a lot of people vote without knowledge or understanding of the problems. Especially in Belgium, since voting here is compulsory, so we have a turnout of 89% the last time. One vote will not make any difference. (Don't give the argument "If everybody thinks so": it is an individual choice, and the choice of others is independent from that.)
That's why imho, if there isn't a party you want to vote, then you should pick the "less awful" party you can.
I don't chose between the plague and cholera. You legitimize the fact that we vote on this by voting. I don't. I don't want to legitimize our 'democracy'. It is deeply flawed and is a tyranny of the majority. I want liberty, not slavery.
Look at the European level: the party that is closest to my view on the European Union, is a extreme right party, who is against all immigration (whilst I am for open borders) and against Islam. They are the closest because they are against the European Union, and so they want to take power away from the European level. I agree on that, but on some points, I think it would be wise to bring the power to the European level. For instance on defense (but this party is against a European Army). So I can't vote on this party, as they take positions that are completely the opposite of mine, and even more, because they are in my view a racist party.
What other party is 'less awful'? Well, the party of Verhofstadt. I ain't gonna vote on that madman.
Even if I go voting, the main parties will keep their influence. Belgium is a true particracy.
And yes, a lot of people vote without knowledge or understanding of the problems. Especially in Belgium, since voting here is compulsory, so we have a turnout of 89% the last time. One vote will not make any difference. (Don't give the argument "If everybody thinks so": it is an individual choice, and the choice of others is independent from that.)
That's why imho, if there isn't a party you want to vote, then you should pick the "less awful" party you can.
I don't chose between the plague and cholera. You legitimize the fact that we vote on this by voting. I don't. I don't want to legitimize our 'democracy'. It is deeply flawed and is a tyranny of the majority. I want liberty, not slavery.
Look at the European level: the party that is closest to my view on the European Union, is a extreme right party, who is against all immigration (whilst I am for open borders) and against Islam. They are the closest because they are against the European Union, and so they want to take power away from the European level. I agree on that, but on some points, I think it would be wise to bring the power to the European level. For instance on defense (but this party is against a European Army). So I can't vote on this party, as they take positions that are completely the opposite of mine, and even more, because they are in my view a racist party.
What other party is 'less awful'? Well, the party of Verhofstadt. I ain't gonna vote on that madman.
I understand what you mean...
I don't know the situation in Belgium. But for example I'd have no problem to vote for Le Pen if I'b be french. And now I'll vote for Lega Nord that is allied with the french Front National. Someone says they're far-right moviments, but I don't think so, and that's why I'll vote them.
I don't know why the "anti-euro" issues came only from the right. I'd like to vote a left wing party against euro, but unfortunately there isn't.
I don't know the situation in Belgium. But for example I'd have no problem to vote for Le Pen if I'b be french. And now I'll vote for Lega Nord that is allied with the french Front National. Someone says they're far-right moviments, but I don't think so, and that's why I'll vote them.
I don't know why the "anti-euro" issues came only from the right. I'd like to vote a left wing party against euro, but unfortunately there isn't.
Someone says they're far-right moviments, but I don't think so
You're wrong. Look at what people from Lega Nord said about minister Kyenge. If that is not racist, I don't know what is. Or the proposition for racial segregation on the bus proposed by Salvini.
Lega Nord is similar to the party in Flanders I was talking about, Vlaams Belang. They will probably form one fraction (Front National from France, Vlaams Belang from Belgium, PVV (Wilders) from the Netherlands, FPÖ from Austria, Lega Nord from Italy, ...). They are all extremist right-wing parties. They are all racist and intolerant.
You're wrong. Look at what people from Lega Nord said about minister Kyenge. If that is not racist, I don't know what is. Or the proposition for racial segregation on the bus proposed by Salvini.
Lega Nord is similar to the party in Flanders I was talking about, Vlaams Belang. They will probably form one fraction (Front National from France, Vlaams Belang from Belgium, PVV (Wilders) from the Netherlands, FPÖ from Austria, Lega Nord from Italy, ...). They are all extremist right-wing parties. They are all racist and intolerant.
Certainly Salvini isn't the smartest person on earth, but we also have to consider Lega and FN haven't all the spin doctor like the main parties on Europe.
Despite some news on the mainstream media, Salvini is not racist. And he explained it a lot of times. He never proposed to keep Italy just for italians, to expel all immigrants, to reduce their rights or something like that. And he never proposed any racial segregation. If I'm not mistake, who proposed it in buses was Borghezio, an asshole that was suspended for many reasons for a lot of time by the party, and now his value is less than a six of clubs when you play ace high...
It's not a racial issue when Lega say that uncontrolled immigration brings unemployment and lower wages. A lot of "radical-chic" from the left wind says we need immigrants becouse they do jobs italians doesn't want to do no more. But of course: when we pay people 2.5 €/hour to clean roads, to milk cows, to harvest, to be the cashier at the supermarket (...) of course for an italian is unacceptable. While for many immigrant is great, becouse they don't have to pay for their children's school, for hospitals, and so on...
Its not a matter of racial supremacy.
And of course Lega was critic toward Kyenge. Not becouse the colour of her skin, but becouse of her political ideas. Can't we criticize a person if he's black?
Here... look how racist Lega Nord is...
Despite some news on the mainstream media, Salvini is not racist. And he explained it a lot of times. He never proposed to keep Italy just for italians, to expel all immigrants, to reduce their rights or something like that. And he never proposed any racial segregation. If I'm not mistake, who proposed it in buses was Borghezio, an asshole that was suspended for many reasons for a lot of time by the party, and now his value is less than a six of clubs when you play ace high...
It's not a racial issue when Lega say that uncontrolled immigration brings unemployment and lower wages. A lot of "radical-chic" from the left wind says we need immigrants becouse they do jobs italians doesn't want to do no more. But of course: when we pay people 2.5 €/hour to clean roads, to milk cows, to harvest, to be the cashier at the supermarket (...) of course for an italian is unacceptable. While for many immigrant is great, becouse they don't have to pay for their children's school, for hospitals, and so on...
Its not a matter of racial supremacy.
And of course Lega was critic toward Kyenge. Not becouse the colour of her skin, but becouse of her political ideas. Can't we criticize a person if he's black?
Here... look how racist Lega Nord is...
Despite some news on the mainstream media, Salvini is not racist. And he explained it a lot of times. He never proposed to keep Italy just for italians, to expel all immigrants, to reduce their rights or something like that. And he never proposed any racial segregation. If I'm not mistake, who proposed it in buses was Borghezio, an asshole that was suspended for many reasons for a lot of time by the party, and now his value is less than a six of clubs when you play ace high...
It was Salvini who proposed the segregation on buses.
It's not a racial issue when Lega say that uncontrolled immigration brings unemployment and lower wages. A lot of "radical-chic" from the left wind says we need immigrants becouse they do jobs italians doesn't want to do no more. But of course: when we pay people 2.5 €/hour to clean roads, to milk cows, to harvest, to be the cashier at the supermarket (...) of course for an italian is unacceptable. While for many immigrant is great, becouse they don't have to pay for their children's school, for hospitals, and so on...
So they are right, saying the Italians don't want to do it?
And of course Lega was critic toward Kyenge. Not becouse the colour of her skin, but becouse of her political ideas. Can't we criticize a person if he's black?
"When I see Kyenge, I think of an orangutan."
Yes, that is criticizing a politician and not the color of her skin. Of course black persons can be criticized, any person can and should be criticized. But not compared with an orangutan. That is racist.
Source. Is this racist or is it not?
Here... look how racist Lega Nord is...
The classical argument of far-right. "Look, we have a black man on our lists." Like that proves anything.
Lega Nord is a party of racists. I'm not saying every single member is a racist, but the party certainly does no attempt to get the racists out.
I am a critic of the European Union. I am a critic of the bureaucracy in Brussels. I am critical on the migration policy of the European Union. But I will never vote on a racist party. You apparently do vote on racists. Your choice, but then accept that people will confront you with what Lega Nord says.
It was Salvini who proposed the segregation on buses.
It's not a racial issue when Lega say that uncontrolled immigration brings unemployment and lower wages. A lot of "radical-chic" from the left wind says we need immigrants becouse they do jobs italians doesn't want to do no more. But of course: when we pay people 2.5 €/hour to clean roads, to milk cows, to harvest, to be the cashier at the supermarket (...) of course for an italian is unacceptable. While for many immigrant is great, becouse they don't have to pay for their children's school, for hospitals, and so on...
So they are right, saying the Italians don't want to do it?
And of course Lega was critic toward Kyenge. Not becouse the colour of her skin, but becouse of her political ideas. Can't we criticize a person if he's black?
"When I see Kyenge, I think of an orangutan."
Yes, that is criticizing a politician and not the color of her skin. Of course black persons can be criticized, any person can and should be criticized. But not compared with an orangutan. That is racist.
Source. Is this racist or is it not?
Here... look how racist Lega Nord is...
The classical argument of far-right. "Look, we have a black man on our lists." Like that proves anything.
Lega Nord is a party of racists. I'm not saying every single member is a racist, but the party certainly does no attempt to get the racists out.
I am a critic of the European Union. I am a critic of the bureaucracy in Brussels. I am critical on the migration policy of the European Union. But I will never vote on a racist party. You apparently do vote on racists. Your choice, but then accept that people will confront you with what Lega Nord says.
Not voting isn't some kind of "rebel" position, but just a way for the main parties to keep their influence.
I agree.
(editado)
I agree.
(editado)
You can agree, but the argument is that it doesn't matter. You are not preventing the main parties to keep their influence by voting on smaller (or anti-establishment) parties. In contrary, you are confirming that you agree on the political system that protects them.
Calderoli is called a "pig", but nobody suggested they're racists, and when he said she looks like an orangutan he was referring about her political behaviour. Someone said this is racism towards africans, and he said orangutan isn't even an african animal!
About Salvini, I just checked: he wasn't suggesting anything. He was just wondering how will be Milan in 10 years with the arrogance of the immigrants.
I really can't see anything racist in this. I've been in the Paris metro a couple of year ago. Am I racist if I say that there are a lot of arrogant and unpolite foreigners?
About Salvini, I just checked: he wasn't suggesting anything. He was just wondering how will be Milan in 10 years with the arrogance of the immigrants.
I really can't see anything racist in this. I've been in the Paris metro a couple of year ago. Am I racist if I say that there are a lot of arrogant and unpolite foreigners?
Someone said this is racism towards africans, and he said orangutan isn't even an african animal!
XD Sorry but this argument is so funny. :D
So if I throw banana at African people, that's totally not racist, because I can say: "Hey, I didn't mention you're like a chimpanzee. Orangutans also eat banana, they're not African."
XD Sorry but this argument is so funny. :D
So if I throw banana at African people, that's totally not racist, because I can say: "Hey, I didn't mention you're like a chimpanzee. Orangutans also eat banana, they're not African."
Also, Jobbik does the same in Hungary.
- They keep telling, Gypsies are criminals, and police should be there every day around the places where Gypsies live.
- They say it's totally not racist, because there are decent Roma people, who doesn't act like Gypsies, and there are non-Roma criminals, who are Gypsies.
- They like to show Roma/Gypsie people who support them, like last time I read one of their newspapers there was a Gypsie Racer who had a Jobbik logo on his car.
- They keep telling, Gypsies are criminals, and police should be there every day around the places where Gypsies live.
- They say it's totally not racist, because there are decent Roma people, who doesn't act like Gypsies, and there are non-Roma criminals, who are Gypsies.
- They like to show Roma/Gypsie people who support them, like last time I read one of their newspapers there was a Gypsie Racer who had a Jobbik logo on his car.
I also agree with that remark. But I think I agree with Levitate in everything else in this discussion :P
The positions of Le Pen, Lega Nord, etc, are questionable (like ev eryone else's, I suppose), but one must ask oneself why are they so embarrassed to call themselves what they are. Somehow, I can understand the existence of a Communist Party, but I would find such party very suspicious if they insist on refusing the term "extreme-left", and sustain it by showing that they have a very rich guy in their list :P
The positions of Le Pen, Lega Nord, etc, are questionable (like ev eryone else's, I suppose), but one must ask oneself why are they so embarrassed to call themselves what they are. Somehow, I can understand the existence of a Communist Party, but I would find such party very suspicious if they insist on refusing the term "extreme-left", and sustain it by showing that they have a very rich guy in their list :P
Calderoli is called a "pig", but nobody suggested they're racists, and when he said she looks like an orangutan he was referring about her political behaviour. Someone said this is racism towards africans, and he said orangutan isn't even an african animal!
... I don't even know how to respond to this.
About Salvini, I just checked: he wasn't suggesting anything. He was just wondering how will be Milan in 10 years with the arrogance of the immigrants.
Do you have a (preferably non-Italian; it can be English, French, German or Dutch) reliable source for this? 'Cause all the sources I checked, he was talking about segregation on buses.
... I don't even know how to respond to this.
About Salvini, I just checked: he wasn't suggesting anything. He was just wondering how will be Milan in 10 years with the arrogance of the immigrants.
Do you have a (preferably non-Italian; it can be English, French, German or Dutch) reliable source for this? 'Cause all the sources I checked, he was talking about segregation on buses.
I am wondering if there are people on this world that are stupid enough who thinks that arrogance is typical immigrant behaviour and they act arrogant because they are immigrants.
Clearly there are still many stupid people on this world left. If people or in this case immigrants act arrogant that will have a lot of various reason but not the fact that they are immigrants. Politics should be focused to solve the problems instead of just naming the outcome of what they created thereself.
So much ignorance....
Clearly there are still many stupid people on this world left. If people or in this case immigrants act arrogant that will have a lot of various reason but not the fact that they are immigrants. Politics should be focused to solve the problems instead of just naming the outcome of what they created thereself.
So much ignorance....
You've got that right, people are stupid.
I am wondering if there are people on this world that are stupid enough who thinks that arrogance is typical immigrant behaviour and they act arrogant because they are immigrants.
Who said that?
Who said that?
It's eary, I've got not much time (cos now I must go to do a job people says italians doesn't want to do anymore), so by the moment I founded only italian newspaper.
This is "La Repubblica", a newspaper owned by De Benedetti (#1 PD card).
Milano, la proposta della Lega "Carrozze metro solo per milanesi" [Milan, the Lega proposal: metro wagons reserved for milaneses]
"La mia proposta sarà valida fra dieci anni se la sicurezza nei trasporti pubblici meneghini non cambierà". E poi ha precisato: "I posti saranno riservati ai milanesi sì, ma di qualsiasi razza e colore. Chi mi critica non ha mai preso certe linee a rischio. Lo faccia, e cambierà idea".
["My proposal will eventualy came 10 years from now if the safety in Milan's pubblic transport won't change." Then he specified "places should be reserved for milaneses of any races and colour. Who criticize me never went on some unsafe lines. Do it, and then he'll change his mind"]
La Stampa [another Lega-skeptic newspaper]
"Sui bus posti riservati ai milanesi" [on buses reserved seats fo milaneses]
Carrozze metro riservate alle donne «di qualsiasi età» e posti riservati «ai milanesi per bene di qualunque razza e colore». È quello che «fra dieci anni saremo costretti a chiedere», afferma Matteo Salvini, se la situazione sicurezza sui trasporti pubblici meneghini continua così.
[Metro/wagon reserved for women of any age and reserved seats for "milaneses of any races and colour". This is what "in 10 years we'll be forced to ask", said Salvini, if the safety on Milan's public transport won't change.]
As you see, title are "a little" different. Salvini never proposed to restore apartheid or something like that.
This is "La Repubblica", a newspaper owned by De Benedetti (#1 PD card).
Milano, la proposta della Lega "Carrozze metro solo per milanesi" [Milan, the Lega proposal: metro wagons reserved for milaneses]
"La mia proposta sarà valida fra dieci anni se la sicurezza nei trasporti pubblici meneghini non cambierà". E poi ha precisato: "I posti saranno riservati ai milanesi sì, ma di qualsiasi razza e colore. Chi mi critica non ha mai preso certe linee a rischio. Lo faccia, e cambierà idea".
["My proposal will eventualy came 10 years from now if the safety in Milan's pubblic transport won't change." Then he specified "places should be reserved for milaneses of any races and colour. Who criticize me never went on some unsafe lines. Do it, and then he'll change his mind"]
La Stampa [another Lega-skeptic newspaper]
"Sui bus posti riservati ai milanesi" [on buses reserved seats fo milaneses]
Carrozze metro riservate alle donne «di qualsiasi età» e posti riservati «ai milanesi per bene di qualunque razza e colore». È quello che «fra dieci anni saremo costretti a chiedere», afferma Matteo Salvini, se la situazione sicurezza sui trasporti pubblici meneghini continua così.
[Metro/wagon reserved for women of any age and reserved seats for "milaneses of any races and colour". This is what "in 10 years we'll be forced to ask", said Salvini, if the safety on Milan's public transport won't change.]
As you see, title are "a little" different. Salvini never proposed to restore apartheid or something like that.