Subpage under development, new version coming soon!
¡¡¡Tema cerrado!!!
Asunto: News Around The World
You forget the years before that simplified picture, it was already a mess. Nepotism and corruption is the start of your country mess and these problems are part of Greece for a very long time. The problems didn't start the moment help had to come from other countries. Close your eyes and refuse to see who is responsible for the real problems makes you as worse as those who are responsible for these problems, the corrupt and incompetent Greece politicians + those who voted for these politicians ....
But hee, blame everyone else.
But hee, blame everyone else.
I like how the size of the circles have pretty much nothing to do with the numbers in them :p
of course the problem was from before 2010, and of course politicians and voters have responsibility but thats no reason to insist in a failed programmm.
Responsible is also german companies like siemens, bayer and many more which helped A LOT in corruption.
and of course for charles the holy banks is with no responsibility and their depts must be paying from citizens taxation...
poor charles, you are looking only a part of the picture and thats not from your ingnorence but from choice and this is pathetic...
(editado)
Responsible is also german companies like siemens, bayer and many more which helped A LOT in corruption.
and of course for charles the holy banks is with no responsibility and their depts must be paying from citizens taxation...
poor charles, you are looking only a part of the picture and thats not from your ingnorence but from choice and this is pathetic...
(editado)
what should they do to help greece growing? how is the real economy now? do you have any industries there?
Holy banks, poor Charles .... and you talk about pathetic while using these words to make a point?! That's pathetic !!
of course the problem was from before 2010, and of course politicians and voters have responsibility but ...
BUT?
You see, blame everyone else.
of course the problem was from before 2010, and of course politicians and voters have responsibility but ...
BUT?
You see, blame everyone else.
Déjà vu
http://sokker.org/forum_topic/ID_forum/1260/ID_topic/3124960/pg/37#forum-topic-post-550
Your ban ended and right away you start questioning mod decisions on the forum ... you start babbling about west vs east and censor ... you post lies about the reason of your bans
About 100 days ago the same happened. I wonder how many days it will take till your next even longer ban:/
(editado)
http://sokker.org/forum_topic/ID_forum/1260/ID_topic/3124960/pg/37#forum-topic-post-550
Your ban ended and right away you start questioning mod decisions on the forum ... you start babbling about west vs east and censor ... you post lies about the reason of your bans
About 100 days ago the same happened. I wonder how many days it will take till your next even longer ban:/
(editado)
Greece is pretty unbelievable. They are making a referendum because they say its democratic and at the same time politicians are pushing their people with propaganda about how everyone else is bad to make greek people say No to the referendum.
Also a nice graph to show how Greece debt rocketed during the 2007- crisis years, meaning Greece govt took ALOT more loans than others to maintain the level of their living standard while others had to deal with the crisis. I dont know how can they blame anyone else but themselves in that. Noone else loaned like that. Yeah the root of the problems started already alot earlier, but this was the culmination and all that is happening now was pretty preventable but no.... lets just loan to get by for a few more years, next government is responsible then....and so on.
Also a nice graph to show how Greece debt rocketed during the 2007- crisis years, meaning Greece govt took ALOT more loans than others to maintain the level of their living standard while others had to deal with the crisis. I dont know how can they blame anyone else but themselves in that. Noone else loaned like that. Yeah the root of the problems started already alot earlier, but this was the culmination and all that is happening now was pretty preventable but no.... lets just loan to get by for a few more years, next government is responsible then....and so on.
That is simply not true.
You are showing "Eurozone average", which includes Germany and its negative interest rates, etc. Why don't you compute the average for Portugal, Spain, Ireland, etc to compare Greece against other countries undergoing a debt crises?
So, when you say
meaning Greece govt took ALOT more loans than others to maintain the level of their living standard while others had to deal with the crisis.
You are echoing the misleading populism that is often found in Central Europe media, which is not accurate at all. All the countries I mentioned (from "irresponsible Greece" to "good guy Spain") experience large increases in Debt/GDP, partly by taking more loans (mostly to finance bank bailouts), but also by pure interest rate effects: all countries are engaged in a continuous refinancing of their debts, as the staggered structure of maturity implies that a part of the debt is being payed back every year, and that part doesn't need to coincide with the optimal debt increase/reduction for that year. If the interest demanded on the new loans is much higher, debt will skyrocket. And why would that happen? Because of a higher perceived probability of default. But this is self-fulfilling: I expect higher default probability, I require a higher compensation. This higher compensation makes debt grow faster, effectively causing it to be more difficult to repay. That's why a simple "whatever it takes" from Draghi works wonders.
And which countries experienced this "risk premium" spiral? Only Greece? No: IMF's "good students" Portugal, Spain, etc underwent the same path. But, of course, your graph is hiding them behind Germany, Austria, etc, etc. Moreover, is that a weighted average? Or are you simply giving each country ratio the same weight (meaning many small countries without a debt ccrisis would quickly bring the average down)?
So, the whole idea of "keeping their living standards while others dealt with the crisis" has no basis: every country "market panic" experienced the same, and it doesn't have anything to do with "dealing" or not with anything.
Now, on top of this, many things happened in Greece and elsewhere, but that simplistic picture is silent about it, so there isn't really much to learn from it...
PS: and Debt/GDB ratio not only reflects actual increases in Debt, but also the fall in GDP... your Debt/GDP can grow even if you don't borrow more, and it can fall even if you are not paying back...
(editado)
You are showing "Eurozone average", which includes Germany and its negative interest rates, etc. Why don't you compute the average for Portugal, Spain, Ireland, etc to compare Greece against other countries undergoing a debt crises?
So, when you say
meaning Greece govt took ALOT more loans than others to maintain the level of their living standard while others had to deal with the crisis.
You are echoing the misleading populism that is often found in Central Europe media, which is not accurate at all. All the countries I mentioned (from "irresponsible Greece" to "good guy Spain") experience large increases in Debt/GDP, partly by taking more loans (mostly to finance bank bailouts), but also by pure interest rate effects: all countries are engaged in a continuous refinancing of their debts, as the staggered structure of maturity implies that a part of the debt is being payed back every year, and that part doesn't need to coincide with the optimal debt increase/reduction for that year. If the interest demanded on the new loans is much higher, debt will skyrocket. And why would that happen? Because of a higher perceived probability of default. But this is self-fulfilling: I expect higher default probability, I require a higher compensation. This higher compensation makes debt grow faster, effectively causing it to be more difficult to repay. That's why a simple "whatever it takes" from Draghi works wonders.
And which countries experienced this "risk premium" spiral? Only Greece? No: IMF's "good students" Portugal, Spain, etc underwent the same path. But, of course, your graph is hiding them behind Germany, Austria, etc, etc. Moreover, is that a weighted average? Or are you simply giving each country ratio the same weight (meaning many small countries without a debt ccrisis would quickly bring the average down)?
So, the whole idea of "keeping their living standards while others dealt with the crisis" has no basis: every country "market panic" experienced the same, and it doesn't have anything to do with "dealing" or not with anything.
Now, on top of this, many things happened in Greece and elsewhere, but that simplistic picture is silent about it, so there isn't really much to learn from it...
PS: and Debt/GDB ratio not only reflects actual increases in Debt, but also the fall in GDP... your Debt/GDP can grow even if you don't borrow more, and it can fall even if you are not paying back...
(editado)
You can check how things went country by country after 2007 here
And that's still just about Debt/GDP, which as I said above can mean many things until we bring more information to the table...
And that's still just about Debt/GDP, which as I said above can mean many things until we bring more information to the table...
I didnt say Spain and Portugal and others didnt go down the same path. They did. But they also got out of it while Greece did not, why? Because they think paying the debts back is not their business. Yes there were "premium" interest rates and banks should have dealt with it better but how come noone else had such big problems? Do you share the view that everybody in Europe wanted Greece to fall? Im sure noone wanted it and it was the Greece themselves who took that on them. Lets put it like that: I take a loan and then at home im thinking hey that interest rate was too high, i got scammed, now i do not want to pay my loan back. But hey, it cant happen again can it? Lets take another loan and im again at home and....wait....again those big interest rates, damn europeans scammed us again. And so on and on for almost a decade.
Of course the graph is way too simplified but that still gives pretty much the simple truth behind the curtain of what is going on with Greece and why they are standing where they are and noone else is.
Of course the graph is way too simplified but that still gives pretty much the simple truth behind the curtain of what is going on with Greece and why they are standing where they are and noone else is.
But they also got out of it while Greece did not, why?
How so? Hove you checked the graphs in the link? Only Greek Debt/GDP has turned downwards....
Yes there were "premium" interest rates and banks should have dealt with it better but how come noone else had such big problems?
All of them had big problems until Draghi's D-day...
Do you share the view that everybody in Europe wanted Greece to fall?
No, but why do you try to put additional words on my mouth when I made quite precise claims? :)
I rebated a very dubious statement purportedly backed with a misleading graph. What isn't true, isn't true; it doesn't mean that other statements become automatically true (except strictly contradictory statements :P)
Of course the graph is way too simplified but that still gives pretty much the simple truth behind the curtain of what is going on with Greece and why they are standing where they are and noone else is.
Emh, no, as I explained, it really doesn't, not at all. Come on, you have the info there :)
Greece, as many others, was in deep trouble in 2007. You can blame it on many things, but for the sake of the argument, we could even say the Greek did a lot of stupid/wrong/criminal/whatever things to get there. Doesn't really change the fact: in 2007, it was a mess, for many countries, and especially for them.
Since then, there was a series of governments making things worse in agreement with the troika, until they simply failed at all ends (they could not keep up with their agreements with the troika nor could they satisfy their own voters). This happened in a predictable way due to unrealistic commitments that both parties were happy to sign and stupid policy "recommendations" that the troika insisted on. And I don't blame any conspiracy to cause harm to Greece (never blame evil when stupidity is enough :P). The truth, in any case, is that Greek governments signed deals that were not in the best interest of Greece, and the troika pushed (imposed) conditions that were not in the best interest of Greece nor its creditors. The bad decisions of Greek governments with very little bargaining power don't mean we must be blind at the bad decisions of Eu governments and international institutions with a lot of bargaining power. They proposed terrible deals that were accepted and, well, here we are with the consequences of those deals.
Now we have a new Greek government with a very unclear negotiation strategy and a (formerly known as :P) troika insisting on previous mistakes. Hard to expect anything good to come out from this.
Vague claims of "unwilling lazy greeks" and "serious, hard-working Portuguese/Spanish/etc" should be substantiated with actual measures that have been taken in each of this countries and the outcomes obtained, always taking into account the difference in the starting conditions (everyone had its own flavour of trouble back in 2007). What was the size of budget cuts in each of this places? How much of the path of deficit/GDP can be explained through expenses and how much by tax revenue and GDP in each case?
And let me insist: I cannot say that what the Greek government proposes right now is the best for everyone. But I do say that the existing agreements were terrible and, "surprise", they can't actually be fulfilled...
How so? Hove you checked the graphs in the link? Only Greek Debt/GDP has turned downwards....
Yes there were "premium" interest rates and banks should have dealt with it better but how come noone else had such big problems?
All of them had big problems until Draghi's D-day...
Do you share the view that everybody in Europe wanted Greece to fall?
No, but why do you try to put additional words on my mouth when I made quite precise claims? :)
I rebated a very dubious statement purportedly backed with a misleading graph. What isn't true, isn't true; it doesn't mean that other statements become automatically true (except strictly contradictory statements :P)
Of course the graph is way too simplified but that still gives pretty much the simple truth behind the curtain of what is going on with Greece and why they are standing where they are and noone else is.
Emh, no, as I explained, it really doesn't, not at all. Come on, you have the info there :)
Greece, as many others, was in deep trouble in 2007. You can blame it on many things, but for the sake of the argument, we could even say the Greek did a lot of stupid/wrong/criminal/whatever things to get there. Doesn't really change the fact: in 2007, it was a mess, for many countries, and especially for them.
Since then, there was a series of governments making things worse in agreement with the troika, until they simply failed at all ends (they could not keep up with their agreements with the troika nor could they satisfy their own voters). This happened in a predictable way due to unrealistic commitments that both parties were happy to sign and stupid policy "recommendations" that the troika insisted on. And I don't blame any conspiracy to cause harm to Greece (never blame evil when stupidity is enough :P). The truth, in any case, is that Greek governments signed deals that were not in the best interest of Greece, and the troika pushed (imposed) conditions that were not in the best interest of Greece nor its creditors. The bad decisions of Greek governments with very little bargaining power don't mean we must be blind at the bad decisions of Eu governments and international institutions with a lot of bargaining power. They proposed terrible deals that were accepted and, well, here we are with the consequences of those deals.
Now we have a new Greek government with a very unclear negotiation strategy and a (formerly known as :P) troika insisting on previous mistakes. Hard to expect anything good to come out from this.
Vague claims of "unwilling lazy greeks" and "serious, hard-working Portuguese/Spanish/etc" should be substantiated with actual measures that have been taken in each of this countries and the outcomes obtained, always taking into account the difference in the starting conditions (everyone had its own flavour of trouble back in 2007). What was the size of budget cuts in each of this places? How much of the path of deficit/GDP can be explained through expenses and how much by tax revenue and GDP in each case?
And let me insist: I cannot say that what the Greek government proposes right now is the best for everyone. But I do say that the existing agreements were terrible and, "surprise", they can't actually be fulfilled...