Asunto: Brexit

I believe in controlled democracy, where you have to earn your right to vote.

I'd love that. But will never happen. In my country, 90% would not pass that test.

If they're uneducated and uninformed, then it's THEIR fault, not the systems.

It's their responsabilityt, not fault.
Anyway I disagree.


I'm saying that educated and informed people are far better mentally equipped to make a choice and are far less susceptible to propaganda and especially socialist propaganda

that's false.
Educated people in facts tend to believe authority. Because one long series of habits (being a good students is doing what teatcher ask..)
So the more a person is educated the more can understand, but realityt show us that more of them decide not to do it.


If you look at this fact in a philosophical view, an educated people is almost A-socratic.
He thinks to know.
So a doctor thinks he can discuss about economy by reading newspaper or an architect thinks he can discuss about politics trusting institutions and press..
But they are AS IGNORANT AS ANYBODY ELSE in those things. But they think not.

So the real ignorant (knowing he is ignorant) can can question a thesis, a educated one will understand he's ignorant?
EU is a perfect example. Facts tells a story, propaganda another. what educated people believe? Propaganda.
more than the ignorants..

They believe all the set of lies, a-critically. Here in sk forums we see it clear.
Educated people that repeat a teached lesson without relaition to reality of facts.


No. I never believed it. I believe in controlled democracy, where you have to earn your right to vote. For example by completing a simple ABCD test about politics, economics etc. I'm fairly sure ~10% would fail to pass it.

Controlled democracy is not democracy.
Call it 'sofocracy' (sophos + kratos) as PLATO did: link
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Thanks for your good post, I agree with most, if not all. It is hard for me to understand why others look at it differently. But we live in a free world.

I'm sorry to say but you make 1 big pile of all and blame it on the EU. A world wide crisis can't be blamed on the EU. Greece doing so badly is because of lying Greece politicians who made a mess of their country way before they joined the EU, it has nothing to do with the EU. Don't blame poor national politics on the EU, it's one of the lies against the EU.

Should I point at Poland and how that country is doing because of direct EU help?

And EU countries made deals, for example the 3% rule. If countries mess with that too much others have to pay for it. Is that fair?? Joining the EU gives benefits but it also has it downsides, like paying for other countries that messed up. The same happens nationally, parts of the country are doing better as other parts of the country, the more wealthy parts pay for the poorer parts. A 'pity' we have to pay for incapable Greece politicians, but that is what happens when living 'together'.

EU democratic? It can be better but we have elections. I would love to see a better system, but not if this means we in the Netherlands have to give up human rights because eastern European countries can't handle this freedom, for example gay rights and dealing with the refugees.

And about the TTIP, because of demonstrations the former deal didn't happen and it looks like also this new deal won't make it as many many EU citizens are against it. If that's not democracy then I don't know what is ...

Controlled democracy? Enclosing the decision to a smaller group you mean.
That's anti-democratic, because you deprive a part of the population from the rights to participate. Besides, who decides about the "ABCD test" you mention?

I suppose you could set an age limit, like it's now (you need to be at least 18). But I really doubt, that someone's politically mature enough with 18. It should go back to 21, like it once was...

I believe, that people will vote correctly. If they don't, it would mean they were not given the chance to vote correctly (not enough information, wrong informations, partial information, etc.).

As for politician who have never worked: how could they know, what's good for the average citizen. Most of them never experienced, what it's like to live like those... No school can teach you that.

Greece's entry in the EU and in the Euro Zone has been analyzed, you can't deny that. Twice they didn't notice anything bad about that.
Maybe it wasn't so visible back in 1981, when the entered the EU.
But telling there was no incompetence on both sides when they entered the Euro zone is really ridiculous... I really doubt they were actually fulfilling the criterias back then.

The EU is doomed, because it's construction is faulty. You can't associate economies with so different productivity (much higher in the north) and so different industries (much more developped in the north too, whereas the south relies more on tourism).

What you tell about the TTIP might become true. But the negociations began back in 2013! Thanks to some competent politicians and journalists (yes, there are some :-P ), parts of it leaked mainly in the web (much later in the press).

You simply can't associate the EU to a democracy. A democracy uses referendum to accept laws. Minor changes don't need a referendum though, but when it has to do with the constitution, there's no way to avoid a referendum.

When was the last referendum in the EU before Brexit? 2005 in various countries (Netherlands, France, Eire, maybe some other country I can't recall). The 3 I cited voted "No" to the EU-constitution. Ireland was afaik the only country, who was asked about the Lissabon treaty (a other name for the same constitution), which they also refused.
So much for democracy in the EU... :-S
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That's anti-democratic, because you deprive a part of the population from the rights to participate.

We have a TV show here, its called "Vax Populi". They are going to various parts of the country asking people questions like "what happens with the Sun when the night comes" or "whats the capital of the country" or "whats the name of our planet" and so on.

Its insane, when you hear those answers, and realize they have the right to vote, and they are actually voting, for 100ml vodka or half a kilo of sugar...


So hell yeah, enclosing the decision to a smaller group works when most of your population are uneducated, analphabet and drunken people.

in vodka veritas

;)

The key is how are you defining "works".
Implicitly, you are saying that restricted voting is more likely to result in the outcome you judge best. The problem is that, in that case, restricted voting is inferior to a dictatorship in which you are the dictator.

In the other hand, if you are not looking for a technical solution to a problem, but for an elicitation of the preferences of the population, then you need all of them to vote (and it may still not be enough - it's impossible to have a perfect system to aggregate individual preferences). In that case, restricted voting will never give you the opinion of the population in general, so it's useless.

In other words, to choose a system you need to first be very clear about what do you want to achieve.

It's pretty simple to pick those sequences that are extreme...
It's a pretty well used strategy. Organize a debate on tv (or else). Invite a moron belonging to the group of person you wanna discredit (hateful, stupid, with difficulty to argue), it's pretty easy to find (or to "create" / "play"). And voilà! The people looking at the debate think all persons of the group he (poorly) represents are like him.

I wouldn't bother such shows, you never know how representative they are...
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You can do the same the other side around, look at that video and think about it...

there's one interesting thing to say about those stats telling young people vote for stay and older vote for leave. It was inaccurate and done with a too little n. of interviews.
The only real (accurate) connection of voting was with median income...
lower income voted (most) for leave
higher income voted (most) for stay

ahahah ECHR...
and what does it means?
that russia is in EU?

LOL
Council of Europe

Not to be confused with European Council or Council of the European Union.

Johnson resigns, Farage resigns.

Someone's afraid to do the hard work.