Asunto: Youth players

Pace is more efected by the age though..so it makes more sense to start the training with it as soon as possible, if you want to reach certain level. The difference might be very little, but still..

in what way pace is more affected? there is no difference

with age you simply get less training points in a training so it makes absolutely no difference when you train pace

What you're clearly missing is the benefits NT caps give. GK training gets them into the NT quicker than pace will, there's no advantage to pace first.

GK first always in my opinion, unless you are training other players who require pace or passing.


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Pace is more affected by age, more than other skills, meaning the older the player the slower he trains, what is so hard to understand about it?

No cometer I have clearly not missed anything. I was only talking about the fastest way of training player to certain level, starting with pace is the fastest way always.
What you are clearly missing on the other hand are the disadvantages that NT caps give, meaning injuries (again if we are strictly talking about training player the fastest way).
For U21 purposes it is perhaps better to start with GK or at least keep it balanced, but it is not faster training for the player..

thanks L.B.

i agree

Injuries. Seriously. Is that where you have to go to.......

You could get injured anywhere.

NT training is a guaranteed bonus, injuries are not guaranteed. Therefore injuries are a terrible attempt of an argument against extra training. At least come up with something that has a bit more to the argument. Strikers are perhaps the only exception because they are constantly being hacked at.

Most of my players have played through NT and U21 without anything more than a scratch. Kisnorbo's been injured once in 19 months and never at U21 level. Erdogan has been injured once at NT level in the past 12 months. Well worth the extra training any day of the week. I could probably rattle off several more from my squad alone if I had to.

I've had a few long injuries because those players had huge technique levels for their ages but otherwise most have been very small.

From what I know about pace, at the younger ages (17-23) there really isn't a huge difference between pace and other skills. You wouldn't want to be starting pace at 25 as it's around then differences appear.

Still given we're talking about a keeper here, who requires 2 skills really, you could get both pace and keeper to superdivine by then easily.

I've yet to see any evidence on how much quicker pace is, for all we know it's very small, such that maybe over 4 seasons you gain 1 extra level, but who cares, you catch that back up easily enough and it's not worth the fuss of what order you train something.


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You may be have to read more carefully, I said it clearly that the difference is probably very small, but nonetheless it is there, you admitted it yourself, so no need to argue more..Starting with pace is the faster way to go..as you said it yourself all other words are just fuss..

Concerning injuries, you might just've been very lucky so far, as anybody who experienced injured player in NT will telll you, 3 weeks injury and all the extra training is thrown out the window...
100% increase of injury risk is real fact. "terrible argument" is when somebody points out the advantages and ignores the disadvantages as you just did..so you might think twice about that..

No cometer I have clearly not missed anything. I was only talking about the fastest way of training player to certain level, starting with pace is the fastest way always.

and why is that exactly? :D

it makes absolutely no difference

pace simply needs more training points than other skills, but it doesn't change with age

what changes is the number of point a players gets in a training

I won't even bother to write down why does it make training pace in the beginning and in the end absoutely the same

I said it clearly that the difference is probably very small, but nonetheless it is there, you admitted it yourself, so no need to argue more..Starting with pace is the faster way to go..as you said it yourself all other words are just fuss..

I wasn't debating whether pace was faster or not. I was saying there wasn't enough difference to justify why you train pace first. Has nothing to do with whether I read your words carefully or not, I knew what you were saying.

Concerning injuries, you might just've been very lucky so far, as anybody who experienced injured player in NT will telll you, 3 weeks injury and all the extra training is thrown out the window...

Right so I've been lucky for 7 years?

3 weeks injury equals at best 1 normal pop which is at the lowest possible level. On the basis that NT games give 33% training (as has been mentioned a while back by I believe greg himself, though happy to be corrected) and on the assumption your U21 players don't play 2 club games a week, it's fair to suggest you'd get more than 1 normal pop from playing NT games even if you got injured once a season. Most injuries aren't even 3 weeks. To miss 3 weeks worth of training from an injury on a NT game you'd require an injury of around 28 days as anything slightly injured is still trainable and those type of injuries are fairly rare. If you're getting injured 3 or more times a season I'd be investigating why because it's likely due to tactics of the manager or poor skill distribution. You can be unlucky but you shouldn't be consistently unlucky over a long enough period of time.

100% increase of injury risk is real fact.
Think you've used the wrong statement here. I think you meant to say that by playing the NT game there's an extra game where they might get injured. Good thing is you didn't word it that way. Flipping 1 coin once or twice doesn't change the chance of flipping a head on either occasion, so long as they are independent flips and you don't switch to a double sided coin.

I don't know the factors of other player skills on the probability of injury, it's probably less likely when you play an U21 NT side then a friendly, but in theory, if you played the same team once, twice, three times, the chance on each occasion of getting injured would be the same (on the assumption games are independent of other games and there's no fatigue factor thrown in due to playing an earlier game), so the increase chance of injury is false (the chance remains the same), other than playing against much weaker players which is not mentioned by your obviously mis-stated so called fact.

Happy to be proven wrong rather than speculation and will cop it on the chin if I am.

Edit: Ultimately it's up to the individual to decide but I'd rather train GK first because it gives you options later, you can switch to midfielder training and use your already gk trained player without having to sacrifice players for training, a GK with high GK and low pace who's young will sell better generally then a GK with low GK and high pace and then there's also the NT bonus. To me the speed difference isn't significant enough to offset all of those benefits but again it's the user who decides based on what's best in his/her situation.

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You don't have to bother with anything, all you need to do is just read the rules again..it DOES change with age more than with other skills, I'm surprised you don't know that..may be cometer will explain this to you, I don't feel like repeating myself for the 4th time..

Point the line in rules where it says so.

I wasn't debating whether pace was faster or not. I was saying there wasn't enough difference to justify why you train pace first. Has nothing to do with whether I read your words carefully or not, I knew what you were saying.

I basically said the same thing, you are just arguing for arguments sake..seems to be some pattern here..

on the assumption your U21 players don't play 2 club games a week

Nobody plays player just in U21 match, that would be waste of player's potential, so your math is wrong.
1 man's experience is quite not big enough sample..may be ask managers on int. forum what they think about injuries in NT, you'll hear different stories..
I'm only saying it's a double edge, bonus training (which is fairly small bonus, if you train "normally" league+NT) vs. injury risk, it's up to you to decide, but not everyone is as lucky as you.

so the increase chance of injury is false

You seem to be bit confused about probability, may be it's a language barrier or something, but you might ask some mathematician friend how to calculate probability, you might be surprised that the number of "tries" is a key value in the equation..It's also common sense..

Let me bore you with few simple numbers, let's assume that probability of injury is 50% (to make it simple to comprehent), so the chance of injury is 50% in 1 match and also 50% in another match (stays the same, you are correct), but (50% can be also written as 1/2) that number changes in 10 matches, look:

1/2*1/2*1/2*1/2*1/2*1/2*1/2*1/2*1/2*1/2 = 1/1024 so the probability you won't get injured is only 1/1024

Please don't hurt your chin

Edit:...

Don't disagree with you here, but I said that already, I'm glad we agreed that starting with pace is the faster way to go, which was my only point. Still we had to go through all that fuss right?
It's up to anybody to decide his strategy concerning training, market value or NT ad/disadvantages..My original point remains..

anyway we seem to be little off topic here..

Point the line in rules where it says so.

I state that the discussion I liked: It is very interesting!
I have read all the discussion on the cellular, but unfortunately I could not write before because I was to work.

I have read many interesting considerations. I share some than others, but without going into too much about, I must say that I agree with the following statements:

cometer:
GK first always in my opinion

LaBamba:
For U21 purposes it is perhaps better to start with GK or at least keep it balanced

borkos007:
gk without goalkeeper skill is useless

and I would say that we all agree on this! :)


cometer:
NT training is a guaranteed bonus, injuries are not guaranteed.

In this case the situation is more complex (we can do many calculations of probability...but there is no certainty), but I agree with cometer, Especially since we are talking about a Gk, where the risk of injury is much less, than That of a player "movement" or worse than a striker!



But, in my opinion, one of the key considerations made ​​it cometer:
cometer:
Still given we're talking about a keeper here, who requires 2 skills really, you could get both pace and keeper to superdivine by then easily.

In fact, having the player 17 years, will be able to easily get to have superdivine gk within 20 years! So from 20 years to 25 years, there will be plenty of time to finish it in speed, without losing too much efficiency training, because of aging!

I say this also because for two years I do the GK scout for the Italian u21 national team and see how you train all the best goalkeepers: those who strongest arrive in 20 years with SUPERDIVINE GK, and FORMIDABLE or (max) OUTSTANDING speed. At that age, it is also more likely to find a potential buyer who successfully complete them in speed, since most Sokker users training that!
And our Rudan has all it takes to get to 20 years as well! :)
This is the nice notice for australian NT and U21!
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Good - Talent 4

Anthony Franker, age: 16

club: Snappa Serpents, country: Australia,
value: 32 800 AU$, wage: 880 AU$,
very good form, tragic tactical discipline,
height: 187 cm, ·weight: 79.796 kg

tragic stamina tragic keeper
weak pace poor defender
weak technique weak playmaker
unsatisfactory passing poor striker