Asunto: »[info]Dev Diary #82: Automatic release of NT-players from

I think someday yes - but it is rather far on our priorities.

Why very dumb? Even if the bug you mentioned wouldn't going to be fixed, I wouldn't call it "very dumb".
Because based on what I see now and stats provided by borkos it seems like that for me

but You point only one very minor issue which is nearly impossible to see
WELP.... Overtaking any team (not only relegated) will cause You to fulfill previously set expectations. In 99,9% of situations new team will be in way worse situation than overtaken one (Supporters/$$$/players who received some training etc). So unless there is a major shift and owner no longer wish to get new users, this seems like a major issue for me.
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it is much better place to improve our algoritm, especially if there is no link to any game element.
I totally get it, which is why I'm surprised You ain't taking current db snapshot and apply it on test server or any other temporary instance.

We want to test it here than on test server, when database is small and not relevant.
Yet still same mistake happens. Before verifying how the algorithm works on game server and applying some fixes/adjustments to it, new feature becomes public and it is only making commotion.

I interpreted it as something slightly different but nonetheless it is an issue which obviously is going to be fixed/adapted.

It's actually better this way since silent testing on test server has proven to miss even obvious bugs and/or wrong assumptions.

Form is not a priority ? Why ? We have no control over it (except selling) ux couldn't be worse.

I'm missing something. You spend a lot of time on interface like pressroom (very nice work btw’ but not vital for the core game), and a very little on fixing the core game's recurring problems which require much less effort. Why ?

Same as juniors draws. Why not fixing probabilities, it could be done by changing few lines of codes but we have to wait the new interface for juniors school during all that time ?

Why not working on small changes / hacking in parallel of your big plans ?

It's actually better this way since silent testing on test server has proven to miss even obvious bugs and/or wrong assumptions.


Indeed, but before making it public, new feature should be only visible to dedicated group of members (devs/testers/some other people whom owners trusted) to verify it. Based on my experience, devs tends to assume holistic approach and push untested code to production, which is where QA should keep them at bay. Based on what I seen in those ~2 years since I returned to game, either QA concerns are not heard by devs or only best-case-scenarios are verified :(

it is not the final algoritm, we will set some basic expectations for new teams, it is quite obvious.

we slowly developing both elements - gameplay and interface.
We need to change all old pages to new ones as soon as possible, that was our goal from beggining - still a lot ahead of us here.
In the same time we try to fix some other elements, but often we combine that changes with interface pages we work with - for example, lot of features for transfers (like observing player, autorefreshing) where added in line with new view. That is the most efficient way - the same rule was with new training system (introduced with new training page and training reports) or league reform (combined with new schedule view).

I think that form can be upgraded somehow, but it is not the crucial problem, we have some other - like "playing to win" - and that is why we want to introduce supporters expectations and prizes first.
In the same time we will fix some other bugs, like injuries (i know it takse a lot time and is still on the table, but hopefully we will manage it soon). Form require some new approach, so it means like quite lot of work, when there is still lot to do with other areas.

I think that form can be upgraded somehow, but it is not the crucial problem, we have some other - like "playing to win" - and that is why we want to introduce supporters expectations and prizes first.

I must say that form is a far greater issue than you realise!
If you have far better players than your opponents, but the form of your players fall into tragic mode (long time) and your opponents players had risen towards divine, then it's more than possible that your team (with far better players) is playing far below their potential and thus not in the possibility to achieve the sups expectations.

I'm excited to see the introduction of supporters expectations, but I would like you to verify on which points the expectations are calculated:

1) Previous position in the league (last season at end season)
2) Previous expectations (off course...the first time, this point will be empty), because it's impossible a team plays against relegation in previous season and the season after sups expect your team to play for championship
3) Financial club balance (as spoken of here)
4) CURRENT players in your team
5) Sales from last season
6) Buys from last season
7) Average form of A-team (league players)
8) Average value of ALL players (ALL players who played in league games last season)
9) Average age of A-team players
10) Team Ranking

Each point above should get a score from 1 to 5 f.e.
Then all scores should be added on with each other to 1 general score
THIS score should be placed in a list along with all other teams in your league.
The position you are placed within the league should be determined by this score!
Then, the expectations should be determined by the place you get at the start of the season.

That is the fairest way to determine the expectations.
In other words...If you improve your position at the end of the season, compaired with your starting position, your fans will determine the season to be succesfull!
If you drop in the league...obviously your sups will complain.

Also...if you deliver far above expectations and your team promotes to a higher division, to be outclassed and relegated again the next season, fans should not drop!
There should be an expectation for promoting teams to relegate and thus ''achieve'' succes in the eyes of the fans.

Imo...fans expectations should have:

-Expect your team to end in 1st place (highest expectation)
-Expect your team to play for top 3 place
-Expect your team to avoid relegation play-off
-expect your team to avoid relegation
-Expect your team to relegate. This season is already an achievement! (lowest expectation)

But maybe for the future, fans expectations can be expanded with examples like these:

- Fans expect the team to get reïnforcements (new players)
- Fans expect the team to improve it's matchrating points (Min. rating points f.e. 50.8)
- Fans expect the team to expand the stadium
- Fans expect the team to lower their stadium prices
- ...

Anyways..whatever it will be...I contributed my thoughts on the matter.
Good luck with the rest of your work! In overall, I'm still happy to see the progress.

I understand that form is important, we just have some more important tasks first:) fanclub expectations, youth school reform, merge of small countries - i think we can agree that this are more valid problems to be solved first:)

Expectations algoritm is considering many parameters - you were quite close with your types here.

Expectations algoritm is considering many parameters - you were quite close with your types here.

Well, that is very good to read! :-)

There were lot of obvious things that should or shouldn't make final version, but we both know it wasn't the case - team star backend was best example ;)
But I'll wait for official announcement that both supporters expectations feature and pressroom view are completed. Maybe there also gonna be some extras :)

Raul you mentioned merge of small countries can you elaborate on this with more info what is the plan?

is there any data analysis done on form - i.e. how many players get stuck at 0, etc which would help to gauge the impact the current form implementation has on the system?

+1