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Asunto: Fans expectations
If the system is fucked up at easiest level to determine (new users in weak leagues) then it is probably also fucked up at different levels, since it's the same system. And judging by what people write about different levels - it doesn't really make sense, so there's probably something wrong in the assumptions on which they based the new system.
I will give you an example from my side. Results by date.
Week 1: Win in cup, loss in league = - 10 supporters
Week 2: Loss in league, win in Cup, win in league = -9 supporters.
Week 3: Draw in league, win in cup, 0:9 loss in league = -8 supporters
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I will give you an example from my side. Results by date.
Week 1: Win in cup, loss in league = - 10 supporters
Week 2: Loss in league, win in Cup, win in league = -9 supporters.
Week 3: Draw in league, win in cup, 0:9 loss in league = -8 supporters
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The fan base should be much bigger imo! Now top level managers have a fan base around 3500 - 4000?
It should be a tenfold of that! People should be tempted to play for high class football all the time!
3500 - 4000 should be a level achieved after 1 succesfull season.
And then the ''reputation'' Geston was talking about should build that up with good results and promotions.
Relegations should be costly on your rep and cut out at least 25% of what you've build up so far.
so fighting against relegation will also be rewarding for your fan base!
But the way it is now, your income has stagnated and you're forced to farm to have a proper income. And this is wrong!
As for fan mood, it should be more straight forward.
Start of the season, 4/7. Just promoted, 6/7, just relegated, 2/7, achieved your season expectations without promotion, 5/7 and so on...
Then, match loss = -1, match win = +1, match draw = no change
How hard can it be?
It should be a tenfold of that! People should be tempted to play for high class football all the time!
3500 - 4000 should be a level achieved after 1 succesfull season.
And then the ''reputation'' Geston was talking about should build that up with good results and promotions.
Relegations should be costly on your rep and cut out at least 25% of what you've build up so far.
so fighting against relegation will also be rewarding for your fan base!
But the way it is now, your income has stagnated and you're forced to farm to have a proper income. And this is wrong!
As for fan mood, it should be more straight forward.
Start of the season, 4/7. Just promoted, 6/7, just relegated, 2/7, achieved your season expectations without promotion, 5/7 and so on...
Then, match loss = -1, match win = +1, match draw = no change
How hard can it be?
The problem is that you have to make a balanced game.
Taking into account your post from different thread about giving more money to winning teams (for end of season results, from tickets etc.) - you would create a situation where top teams would never go down because they would make too much money (they could earn top money from results & playing in top league + money from friendly training)
It would also widen the gap between smaller / medium / big countries because they height of income would have to be connected with general level of league (otherwise you would create utopia in small countries where you could easily both win and train for 96-100%)
I agree that the game should ENCOURAGE people to WANT to play for results, unfortunately all it does in latest times is discouraging doing anything in here, other than training 16-18yo players.
Taking into account your post from different thread about giving more money to winning teams (for end of season results, from tickets etc.) - you would create a situation where top teams would never go down because they would make too much money (they could earn top money from results & playing in top league + money from friendly training)
It would also widen the gap between smaller / medium / big countries because they height of income would have to be connected with general level of league (otherwise you would create utopia in small countries where you could easily both win and train for 96-100%)
I agree that the game should ENCOURAGE people to WANT to play for results, unfortunately all it does in latest times is discouraging doing anything in here, other than training 16-18yo players.
For small countries it should be adjusted on the level of divisions available.
So if there's only 2 to 3 divisions, then the reward should also be like half of what can be won in a country with 4 to 6 divisions, for example.
As for the higher places, you need to disencourage them for playing with young players, so playing there would mainly mean, maintaining a high level team in stead of farming or training young players. So the ''farming'' should slide down to the lower divisions, but then, the training income would decrease since only the top players are bought by the high level teams. At a short view, you are right. Managers in high classes will more likely to maintain a higher rating level, because of the amount of money gained for playing for results. But then again...isn't that how it is irl too? I don't see Real Madrid relegate to 4th division, selling their team, and starting over with only youngsters, right?
Reaching high class football should be a struggle! But the reward for getting there should be much higher, so you then can invest to compete against better teams.
Now, certainly as a relatively new team, you promote, come into a higher class with a decent team, not having enough money to invest in better players and thus are assured for instant relegation again.
On the long run it's imo the best change that can be made to reward the football manager in being a manager!
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So if there's only 2 to 3 divisions, then the reward should also be like half of what can be won in a country with 4 to 6 divisions, for example.
As for the higher places, you need to disencourage them for playing with young players, so playing there would mainly mean, maintaining a high level team in stead of farming or training young players. So the ''farming'' should slide down to the lower divisions, but then, the training income would decrease since only the top players are bought by the high level teams. At a short view, you are right. Managers in high classes will more likely to maintain a higher rating level, because of the amount of money gained for playing for results. But then again...isn't that how it is irl too? I don't see Real Madrid relegate to 4th division, selling their team, and starting over with only youngsters, right?
Reaching high class football should be a struggle! But the reward for getting there should be much higher, so you then can invest to compete against better teams.
Now, certainly as a relatively new team, you promote, come into a higher class with a decent team, not having enough money to invest in better players and thus are assured for instant relegation again.
On the long run it's imo the best change that can be made to reward the football manager in being a manager!
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At a short view, you are right. Managers in high classes will more likely to maintain a higher rating level, because of the amount of money gained for playing for results. But then again...isn't that how it is irl too? I don't see Real Madrid relegate to 4th division, selling their team, and starting over with only youngsters, right?
I agree that current scenario is bad and that's the only good way of managing if you want to play at the top.
At the same time, I wouldn't compare a game to real life. You can't have the same teams at the top all the time here, how would that be fun for anyone?
[I]Reaching high class football should be a struggle! But the reward for getting there should be much higher, so you then can invest to compete against better teams.
It's already a struggle. Try reaching level 70-75 rating while starting in 2024.
If you strengthen the top and middle teams, it will take YEARS to even achieve middle level after joining the game. That would be a nail in the coffin for this game.
In this scenario new teams would have to become farming teams for many, many years and then try going up. Because everyone above them could be making as much or even more money than they would while farming.
That would basically create a status quo in this game. Terrible for everyone.
I agree that current scenario is bad and that's the only good way of managing if you want to play at the top.
At the same time, I wouldn't compare a game to real life. You can't have the same teams at the top all the time here, how would that be fun for anyone?
[I]Reaching high class football should be a struggle! But the reward for getting there should be much higher, so you then can invest to compete against better teams.
It's already a struggle. Try reaching level 70-75 rating while starting in 2024.
If you strengthen the top and middle teams, it will take YEARS to even achieve middle level after joining the game. That would be a nail in the coffin for this game.
In this scenario new teams would have to become farming teams for many, many years and then try going up. Because everyone above them could be making as much or even more money than they would while farming.
That would basically create a status quo in this game. Terrible for everyone.
I think that making money by farming will always be rewarding if the sportive side is not possible. But as a new manager you just have to realise you're not going to play in 1st league within the first year. That's just not how the game is made for. This is and always will be a slow paced game, so it takes time to develop things.
That's why, having a better base, like players, coaches, stadium and funds are mandatory for this change to work.
But you can't just undo 15+ years of managing for older users by taking away any advantage in the game. Cause, this will be even more desastrous for the game.
That's also why I said the game needs much more users. So they can compete against each other before going up the ladder and start competing against the bigger teams.
That's why, having a better base, like players, coaches, stadium and funds are mandatory for this change to work.
But you can't just undo 15+ years of managing for older users by taking away any advantage in the game. Cause, this will be even more desastrous for the game.
That's also why I said the game needs much more users. So they can compete against each other before going up the ladder and start competing against the bigger teams.
It's already a struggle. Try reaching level 70-75 rating while starting in 2024.
If you strengthen the top and middle teams, it will take YEARS to even achieve middle level after joining the game. That would be a nail in the coffin for this game.
I play for ~2 years now. ALL I do is farming. I consider myself to be good at making money. I don't have enough money to make a reasonable attack for the top league.
Who in the right mind would want to play a game like this? :)
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If you strengthen the top and middle teams, it will take YEARS to even achieve middle level after joining the game. That would be a nail in the coffin for this game.
I play for ~2 years now. ALL I do is farming. I consider myself to be good at making money. I don't have enough money to make a reasonable attack for the top league.
Who in the right mind would want to play a game like this? :)
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That's the whole problem.
I would never start playing this game in 2024 or even 2018. It's a farming manager for first years. And not one-two years.
Of course there are teams who don't train properly, who don't make profit, who just play. But they stay at the same level all the time, that's even more pointless.
I would never start playing this game in 2024 or even 2018. It's a farming manager for first years. And not one-two years.
Of course there are teams who don't train properly, who don't make profit, who just play. But they stay at the same level all the time, that's even more pointless.
Yeah. If I were a Polish user when I came back last year...I'd have never bothered.
You’re going to really hate it then when you realise fan size also dictates what you get for sponsorship, gate receipts and additional fan club gain/losses for the most part. There are some other variables like current fan mood, current fan club size, current ticket prices and weather etc but the dominating variable is fan size of both yourself and your league.
2 years since Im back.
I'm in 4th polish league, competing pretty well, still some money on account, maybe not this season, but in next season who knows, 3rd league isn't impossible. Still have some players for sale if I would earn something.
Transfers income: ~28m €
Transfers expenses: ~18m €
profit/loss: ~10m €
With such numbers...
So it is not that bad, you just need to have knowledge (here we wait for official tutorials etc)
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I'm in 4th polish league, competing pretty well, still some money on account, maybe not this season, but in next season who knows, 3rd league isn't impossible. Still have some players for sale if I would earn something.
Transfers income: ~28m €
Transfers expenses: ~18m €
profit/loss: ~10m €
With such numbers...
So it is not that bad, you just need to have knowledge (here we wait for official tutorials etc)
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I mean you can’t base it on avg ratings or average value anyway. That’s terrible. If someone has an extremely good GK and a reserve GK and that instantly blows the average value out even if the other side is better everywhere else. Also value can be manipulated right up to a minute before the start of a match. Expectations need to be derived at least one day out.
Fans was a decent enough thought because fans themselves are tied to success/strength of other teams. Where it falls over is that bots destroy this as they don’t gain fans and often have really low numbers which is why smaller nations get hurt really badly when it comes to sponsorship and income.
The other issue with fans as the metric is that the fan club size is limited so that you can’t get too far ahead of everyone else in your league, thus it gets harder and harder to gain fans. Hence why only larger nations with users typically have higher fan bases and so get more revenue that way.
Smaller nations a new user with few fans promotes and all the existing teams get screwed effectively with sponsorship and their fan base starts going backwards or flattens out. Thus never being able to catch up to those who don’t have this issue as much.
Hence why merged leagues would help that issue and then the whole mechanic around fan club size probably actually works reasonably well and is the better metric for estimating strength than other metrics you’ve mentioned. It’s just it too has flaws and unfortunately everything revenue based is tied to it.
Ranking is not really a good option either as it’s basically as long as you win you’ll improve ranking points for the most part irrespective of who you’re playing.
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Fans was a decent enough thought because fans themselves are tied to success/strength of other teams. Where it falls over is that bots destroy this as they don’t gain fans and often have really low numbers which is why smaller nations get hurt really badly when it comes to sponsorship and income.
The other issue with fans as the metric is that the fan club size is limited so that you can’t get too far ahead of everyone else in your league, thus it gets harder and harder to gain fans. Hence why only larger nations with users typically have higher fan bases and so get more revenue that way.
Smaller nations a new user with few fans promotes and all the existing teams get screwed effectively with sponsorship and their fan base starts going backwards or flattens out. Thus never being able to catch up to those who don’t have this issue as much.
Hence why merged leagues would help that issue and then the whole mechanic around fan club size probably actually works reasonably well and is the better metric for estimating strength than other metrics you’ve mentioned. It’s just it too has flaws and unfortunately everything revenue based is tied to it.
Ranking is not really a good option either as it’s basically as long as you win you’ll improve ranking points for the most part irrespective of who you’re playing.
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Mine too... i'm in week 3 undefeated.. crushing my fans expectation..
went 5-0 27 shots to 0
and two fans left.. by the end of my season.. if i go undefeated.. i wll have no followers left..
as a new player.. getting penalized for winning.. sucks!!!! how are you to build a fan base.. if they leave win you win???
leave when you upset better teams... and i have peanuts for money.. so with my supporters leaving.. i will be too soon.
there is no future playing this game as a new player if you can't build a base of supporters in the lower league..
and this team didn't win a game last season before i took over.. and since have won every league game.. yet my supporters are leaving..
should i be trying to lose.. or switching tactics when i'm a goal up to make the games closer?? is that were we are at for new players? IMO .. this makes ZERO since.... as a new manager.. taking over a winless club.. supporters shouldn't be leaving when i'm winning .. period.. REWARD TEAMS THAT PUT THE EFFORT IN TO WIN!!!! anything short of that... is stupid. imo....
maybe teams that can't win.. prefer this system.. so the winning teams get penalized for winning.. it just makes zeros since for a new player to get penalized for winning!! and you're killing transfer market.. is this an effort to streamline management styles.. so there is only one way to play... I also believe more new players makes the game better.. so why not give new players an incentive to keep playing.... like if they win.. increase their supporters so they can get more sponsor money .. idk .. that's just me...
went 5-0 27 shots to 0
and two fans left.. by the end of my season.. if i go undefeated.. i wll have no followers left..
as a new player.. getting penalized for winning.. sucks!!!! how are you to build a fan base.. if they leave win you win???
leave when you upset better teams... and i have peanuts for money.. so with my supporters leaving.. i will be too soon.
there is no future playing this game as a new player if you can't build a base of supporters in the lower league..
and this team didn't win a game last season before i took over.. and since have won every league game.. yet my supporters are leaving..
should i be trying to lose.. or switching tactics when i'm a goal up to make the games closer?? is that were we are at for new players? IMO .. this makes ZERO since.... as a new manager.. taking over a winless club.. supporters shouldn't be leaving when i'm winning .. period.. REWARD TEAMS THAT PUT THE EFFORT IN TO WIN!!!! anything short of that... is stupid. imo....
maybe teams that can't win.. prefer this system.. so the winning teams get penalized for winning.. it just makes zeros since for a new player to get penalized for winning!! and you're killing transfer market.. is this an effort to streamline management styles.. so there is only one way to play... I also believe more new players makes the game better.. so why not give new players an incentive to keep playing.... like if they win.. increase their supporters so they can get more sponsor money .. idk .. that's just me...
Hi blue, I am not going to justify if the game is correct or not
If you see your ranks and compared with the opponents, maybe the 12-0 is enough for your supporters, but the 5-0 is not, take that into consideration
Additionally you lost 11-0 the last friendly, friendly games affect rank and mood
lastly, as adaca mentioned in the other thread, all supporters will be attracted to the level of your league like gravity which is dependent of the fan size from your league
If you see your ranks and compared with the opponents, maybe the 12-0 is enough for your supporters, but the 5-0 is not, take that into consideration
Additionally you lost 11-0 the last friendly, friendly games affect rank and mood
lastly, as adaca mentioned in the other thread, all supporters will be attracted to the level of your league like gravity which is dependent of the fan size from your league
Hi :) & thanks for your reply!
so 200 fans is the max i can have in my league.. do players that get relagated lose all their fans over 200? you used to be able to build a supporter base in a lower league.. and now you're capped at the number of supporters your team starts with on day one of signing up??? that's dumb.
he was ranked over 4400... and i beat the other league team 11-0 .. so that'a 16-0 in leagues games in my 3rd week of playing my ranking started at 1600... that is low! i was the underdog for the first two weeks in every match.. and my freindly last week i beat a team ranked over 4800 ... so I still don't think my supporters should be leaving so early in my tenure.. that's crap.
and in my first game i was 1600 and beat a team ranked 2400 6-0 no supporters showed up..
and so the friendly match seems to weight more on the supporters mood than the two league games?
I can run up the score.. but 11-0 seems like a lot.. i know it's hard to remember, but players with low rankings, don't score that often.. even with shots in the box, they miss the goal all the time..
look at the stats of the 5-0 game.. the score doesn't reflect the domination.. they had 0 shots. and play was in their half 68% of the time....
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so 200 fans is the max i can have in my league.. do players that get relagated lose all their fans over 200? you used to be able to build a supporter base in a lower league.. and now you're capped at the number of supporters your team starts with on day one of signing up??? that's dumb.
he was ranked over 4400... and i beat the other league team 11-0 .. so that'a 16-0 in leagues games in my 3rd week of playing my ranking started at 1600... that is low! i was the underdog for the first two weeks in every match.. and my freindly last week i beat a team ranked over 4800 ... so I still don't think my supporters should be leaving so early in my tenure.. that's crap.
and in my first game i was 1600 and beat a team ranked 2400 6-0 no supporters showed up..
and so the friendly match seems to weight more on the supporters mood than the two league games?
I can run up the score.. but 11-0 seems like a lot.. i know it's hard to remember, but players with low rankings, don't score that often.. even with shots in the box, they miss the goal all the time..
look at the stats of the 5-0 game.. the score doesn't reflect the domination.. they had 0 shots. and play was in their half 68% of the time....
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No, the rest of it makes sense as fan base influence goes.
However, fan base has ZERO to do with a given team's quality in a moment of time, because it's so slow to move.
A rebuilding team with 3500 fans after many seasons of ML domination (Dinamo T) shouldn't magically hemorrhage fans due to rebuilding- never mind being 'favored' over my team and its 1675 fans. This works to my advantage as a team, but it is incredibly stupid nonetheless.
What would make a lot more sense in determining fan base expectations for a given match is a variable already calculated in league statistics - starting XI cumulative value. This would NOT have changed the assessment from last Sunday, but next season it absolutely would.
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However, fan base has ZERO to do with a given team's quality in a moment of time, because it's so slow to move.
A rebuilding team with 3500 fans after many seasons of ML domination (Dinamo T) shouldn't magically hemorrhage fans due to rebuilding- never mind being 'favored' over my team and its 1675 fans. This works to my advantage as a team, but it is incredibly stupid nonetheless.
What would make a lot more sense in determining fan base expectations for a given match is a variable already calculated in league statistics - starting XI cumulative value. This would NOT have changed the assessment from last Sunday, but next season it absolutely would.
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